Al on the bailout, farm issues and Doug Johnson
September 29th, 2008 – 4:56 PM by Kevin DuchschereAl Franken expressed skepticism today about the proposed $700 billion bailout package, saying that he wouldn’t vote for the plan until he was absolutely convinced it would protect taxpayers.
He’s not there yet, he said.
“It’s really a sad day in America when taxpayers are asked to foot the bill for a mess they didn’t make,” Franken said, shortly before a bipartisan House majority rejected the bailout bill this afternoon.
The DFL Senate candidate said that he won’t support a bill that leaves out the six conditions he spelled out last week: congressional oversight, ownership stakes for taxpayers in companies seeking relief, no golden parachutes for executives, restoration of regulations, a moratorium on home foreclosures and creation of a financial products safety commission.
But he cautioned against rushing to push the bill through. He noted that the package represents more money than the government spends every year for Social Security, or has already spent on the war in Iraq.
Franken spoke to reporters in a conference call announcing that he had received the endorsement of the political action committee of the National Farmers Union. Doug Peterson, president of the Minnesota Farmers Union, said Franken has a solid understanding and interest in farming.
Peterson criticized Republican Sen. Norm Coleman, Franken’s opponent, for supporting the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) and opposing country-of-origin food labeling (which, Coleman says, would raise the price of food).
Franken laid out his rural agenda, which includes promoting wind energy and biofuel production, halting farm subsidies to non-farmers, fair trade, implementing country-of-origin labeling and investing in infrastructure and broadband Internet for rural areas.
He also responded to comments from former state Sen. Doug Johnson, a longtime Iron Range DFLer and legislative powerbroker who said this weekend that he will vote for Coleman because, he said, Franken is too “angry” to accomplish anything in Washington.
For Johnson, it will be a first — he’s never voted for a Republican. “I’ve never been a ticket splitter before, but the problems on the Range, state and country are too severe to stick with one political party,” he said, according to the Mesabi Daily News.
Said Franken: “I’ve said that there have been times that I have gotten outraged at things that have happened in this country … My question is, why hasn’t Norm gotten outraged? I know the difference between being a public figure and being an office holder. I’ll be able to work very well with friends across the aisle on all kinds of things.”
Franken added that he didn’t believe Johnson’s defection represented weak support for him on the Range, traditionally one of Minnesota’s most Democratic areas.
“I’m actually very proud of my support on the Range, and if you talk to any of the state legislators up there, [Tom] Rukavina or [Tony] Sertich … my support is deep and wide,” he said.
222 Responses to "Al on the bailout, farm issues and Doug Johnson"
I wonder what Franken’s view is on gun rights. I know his fellow liberal democrat Barack Obama would take our guns away if he could. In fact, he received an “F” grade from the NRA.
The gun debate is over D2 - no one’s taking away guns. The Supreme Court’s ruling recently validated that the 2nd amendment means we can own them. It would take a lot to overturn that decsion.
Truth of the Day:
Doug Johnson is a class act and has been a tremendous presence for all Minnesotans- not just the Rangers he represents- since he’s been in St. Paul. I’ve had the priviledge of meeting him a few times and he is a good man. It should definately make all DFL die hard’s in MN think twice about who they’ve chosen to endorse for this race.
Anecdotal Evidence of the Day:
Since several people on this blog are so fond of dismissing things like this as “anecdotal evidence” i figure I might as well call it that myself…….I spent the weekend up in northern MN along the eastern half of the Range, and I’d suggest to Mr. Franken that he doesn’t have nearly as much support as a Democrat typically would up there, judging from the number of Coleman signs in private yards. There will be a lot of Oberstar/Coleman split tickets cast on election day up that direction.
on Johnson: obviously s/b “tremendous presence for Minnesotans….when he was in St. Paul.” I keep forgetting that he’s no longer in office, as he was when I still lived there.
I used to live in Virginia, Jay - are you from up there?
I’ve always felt that aside from the traditional labor-orientation, Da Rainch is a pretty conservative place.
I’m from up north, but not Doug’s former district. The place I was referring to that I “used to live” was St. Paul. I would occassionally grab lunch with him and a buddy of mine who also was serving at that time (chicken at Dixie’s on Grand). I’m from Bemidji, if it matters.
Sarge.
If you think the gun debate is over, you should review the action Washington DC is taking in spite of the S.C rulings. they are basically ignoring them.
With the exception of one Chicage suburb, any city that is currently under what are clearly unconstitutional firearms regulation in light of the S.C. ruling are still fighting, basing their decision on the S.C. ruling only applying to Washington D.C.
Additionally, you forget the S.C. decision was 5 to 4. With a lefty loony in the oval office, that balance could change.
As far as Franken goes, I wonder how may “friends across the isle” he thinks he has in light of his “I hate those *&^%$#&(& right wing *(&^%^%&**(”" method of encouraging discussion.
…probably about as many if Bill O’Reilly or Rush Limbaugh ran I suppose.
And Les — I’m not a one issue voter, but if I were and guns were the question, I’d definitely be a Republican.
What really pisses me off though is how extreme liberal democrat Nancy Pelosi tried to blame the Republicans for this financial problem during her leftist partisan rant just before the vote, while the democrats are mainly the ones at fault for this mess!
What kind of leadership abilities does this idiot have to try to win over Republicans (95 democrats voted against her) when her stupid remarks would be seen as a conviction of the Republicans if the bill passed? Madumb Speaker San Fran Nan needs to be removed from her position. No wonder the democrat controlled Congress has only about a 12% approval rating.
– Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN): “We are not babies who suck their thumbs.”
– Minority Whip Roy Blunt (R-MO): “I think you don’t want to give too much blame to that speech.”
– Rep. John Shadegg (R-AZ): “It was embarrassing for leadership on both parties to lose the bill, so they went out and made a stupid claim.”
– Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN): “That speech was not the reason I voted against the bill.” [MSNBC, 9/30/08]
Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI) “I think it was a mistake for House leadership to say that Pelosi’s speech mattered to anybody on our side.”
Dora,
Every Republican who voted has their own opinion of what happened. I could see how someone who hated the bill but was teetering on whether or not to vote for it could be swayed by Pelosi’s reduculously stupid leftist comments. In any case, she is an idoit for doing what she did and should NOT be Speaker of the House.
Again, 95 liberal democrats voted against the bill as well.
That’s not the point D2 - the Republican leadership promised those votes would be delivered — and those idiots flip-flopped…THEY CHANGED THEIR VOTES because Pelosi hurt their feelings. The House Republicans have lost all control of their members. THEY are the idiots, and I hope they all lose their seats over this.
Here’s the problem with house republicans - half are good, decent hard working legislators (I’ll even throw Bachmann in this category because I think she’s sincere — bat-sh1t crazy, but sincere). The other half are stupid country-club types who inherited their seats from Daddy. “Look at the mean and nasty things Pelosi said about us…boo hoo hooo…”
oh please, they changed their vote because of what Pelosi said is just so
much garbage. What would they care if she blamed Bush. They’re all trying to distance themselves from him anyway.
The Republicans are leaderless. They are fractured. They certainly don’t see McCain as a leader. They made him look like a loser too. While he’s on the campaign trail taking credit for passing the bill it’s going down. What a train wreck.
The Democrats delivered the votes they said they would, the Republicans didn’t.
DTSI-bot you’re always raving about Kline and Bachmann. She voted against it, he voted for it.
Wow! I should stayed in Vegas. And by the way, still pretty hopping there despite the Great Depression we are now in,,,,sorry, now I will offend the Pansy-ian by sharing my travels and observations. The City Center construction there is pretty quiet, however.
People here still defending Pelosi and the absolute worst Congress in history.
Just pass a bill, or dont pass it. The majority party has 230 votes and still the same tired voices seem incapable of criticizing their beloved dolts. For all the misogyny on these pages, isnt there one leftie to state the obvious:
Pelosi makes Palin seem like Thatcher.
Pelosi is a clown, those blinky eyes, deer in headlights, etc. Dora, please tell me what a great leader Pelosi is….
Well, almost everyone, as this thread displays someone who seems to be saying “enough is enough.” And if Norm is your “big savior,” you know Franken is a major weiner. No doubt.
Norm has the one commercial where he speaks to the camera for a minute, and he looks like he hasnt slept in a week.
What’s that deal?
“That’s not the point D2 - the Republican leadership promised those votes would be delivered”
“That’s not the point D2 - the Republican leadership promised those votes would be delivered”
How can Republican leadership do that Sarge? Doesn’t each member have the right to think for themselves. I never heard any promises from Republican leadership.
In any case, if the vote was that critical to Pelosi, she shouldn’t have been such an idiot and gone off on her leftist rant if she was trying to win over votes. That’s plain stupid and explains why the democrat dominated Congress which should have been able to pull this off on their own has only about a 12% approval rating.
This is how deals are made in congress D2. It’s not the simple, idealized version that we were all taught, like “Mr Smith Goes to Washington.”
It’s the job of each party’s leader and/or “whip” to coordinate the votes of his party. Currently, the leaders are as follows:
Republican Minority Leader: John Boehner
Minority Whip: Roy Blunt
Democratic Majority Leader: Steny Hoyer
Majority Whip: James E Clyburn
Yes, people can vote against the party, but it’s frowned upon. In the case of important votes like this one, it can get the representative in trouble.
It wasn’t Pelosi’s job to win over votes (how many GOP’ers would even give her the time of day?) It was Rep John Boehner’s job - the Republican minority leader. He lined up the votes, and told Pelosi he had enough to pass the bill. Based on this info, Peolisi was confident the bill will pass, so she called for a vote. Those 12 or so GOP’ers changed their minds and voted differently than they had promised.
This happened in the Minnesota legislature just a few months ago, when a few Republicans broke with the party to vote for the gas tax. They’ve been ostracized by the party.
Sarge wrote: (concerning my Franken comment)
probably about as many if Bill O’Reilly or Rush Limbaugh ran I suppose
Exactly.. Neither one of those should be elected to the house or Senate either.
As far as the bailout vote goes, I find myself agreeing with ora on this. Despite Barney the dinosaur’s claim, Pelosi’s speech wasnt the cause. Have you read the bill’s draft? No golden parachutes..right, unless you happen to sell less than 300 million to TARP.. then you can still qualify for a parachute.. and oh by the way, Direct sales to TARP dont count agains the 300 mil…
It was a bad bill, no justification for the amount request (”we wanted a really big number” says paulson), creates another government agency (hole to throw most of the 250 billion in), allows banks to become “agents of the Federal government” (whats the matter with the fed reserve banks?), and doesnt address the underlying causes of the mess, that why it didnt pass.
So how do you and Dora explain the large number of democrats who didnt “follow the leader”? Dont forget the tremendous negative input by constituents while you determine the “why” of the bill failure.
BTW,,
Isnt “Follow the leader” a bad thing according to the Obama and Franken campaigns? Or is follow the leader only undesireable if the leader isnt a democrat?
The Democrats explained it themselves Les. They wanted more for homeowners than what was in the final bill.
As for ‘follow the leader’, re-read the first paragraph of SgtP’s 7:04am post this morning.
Dora: “What would they care if she blamed Bush. They’re all trying to distance themselves from him anyway.”
To take that a step further, i think some of them are so desparate to distance themselves from Bush that they used this as a token opportunity to vote against something he favored…..which I think is as ridiculous as it is transparent. Complete joke.
That said, Pelosi showed she has no tact in handling a situation that everyone knew was very delicate.
Dora: “They wanted more for homeowners than what was in the final bill.”
That is as much of a BS excuse and the handful of Republicans who blamed Pelosi’s “speech.” The homeowners are receiving the safety net of government taking those debts off the books of independant entities that don’t give a damn about forclosing on them. The gov wants to try and figure out a way to keep those folks in their homes……to buy votes, if nothing else.
Yes Dora, that’s the leasders and whips job. But that doesnt mean the congressman ignores his constituents., nor the fact that the bill was a turkey to begin with. “Do anything, just do it now” isnt prudent governorship.
Why is the democrats claim for “more for the homeowner” a valid excuse and the republican’s basic “smaller government, free market” claim invalid?
As far as “more for the homeowner”, that a red herring. What it should say is more for the fools who took out mortages they coudn’t afford. Just how are you going to square adjusting the mortage of someone in default with the millions of us who live within our means and pay our bills? i.e, if your gonna start the “what’s in it for me” argument, do you balance paying for a McMansion with a payment to every homeowner of %5000 or something?
This morning, CNN’s reporting the Hispanic caucus leader, Rep Boca, was against the bill because it didnt increase salaries and gaurantee jobs..
Well, that wasnt it’s purpose, and he should introduce seperate legislation if that’s his goal. The point is, the purpose of this action (which I’m not condoning) is to protect the nations credit and banking system, not to pay off Joe the stockboy’s McMansion and increase minimum wage.
Anyone got a link to a draft of the Senate proposal, I havent found it yet.
because Les, the Republican “smaller government, free market” claim is bullsh1t.
If the problem has to do with foreclosures then why not renegotiate the mortgage terms of those being foreclosed? Where do you put the money? At the top for those who approved those mortgages and came up with all kinds of “creative” financing without regard to whether they could pay them or at the bottom to keep those who took them out in the home and out of foreclosure? I’m not saying I have the answer. I don’t think there is one answer. And it’s not as simple as foreclosures either but that is one of the dilemmas.
As for all the angry constituents, give me a break, people do not understand how this is and will affect them. They are reacting emotionally to “Wall Street”. Yes, Wall Street should not get off easily but, from everything I’ve read, doing nothing is not an option. It’s complex and convoluted and there is no easy answer.
Well, at least the PP skewers Biden as the gaffe dolt he is:
runs the WaPo Biden gaffe story on 3A today….and
huge editorial cartoon lampooning his gaffes.
Yet, the campaign spin, and obviously supported by much of the “in=the=bag” media is it’s Joe being Joe.
If this were Dan Quayle, then he’d be getting brutalized.
SNL will skewer palin, to media delite and coverage, but oddly there isnt the same delite in Biden. Indeed, it ostrich-like media coverage.
Hilary has convinced me: misogyny does exist, especially now with Biden also having been “under fire” in Iraq–to media silence.
Well isnt this sweet. Care to buy a pig in a poke? If this guy is correct, who knows what they’re planning for us taxpayers.
—
The bill will be voted on by the full Senate tomorrow evening at sundown. It is then expected to go to the House on Thursday. The questions that remain unclear are: to what existing bill are they attaching the bailout bill; is the FDIC insurance limit the only thing being added; and, what changes will be made to the existing plan? Many questions and no answers.
It would seem that they are now going to try and squeeze this bill through the House, by attaching it to another bill with added provisions. The purpose would be to grease the skids for a successful vote. Leave it to Washington,D.C. to pull late night ‘behind the door deals’ in order to get this bill passed.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle+articleid_2665714.html
How are they getting around the “appropriatens bills must originate in the house” part of the constitution?
” people do not understand how this is and will affect them.”
You may be absolutely correct. But remember, Ried said THEY didnt know what to do about this. Add to the mix many are up for reelection in a month, and you got a represetative who’s gonna go with the flow at home regardless of what Boehner or Pelosi says.
The fact that the house servers almost crashed, and the telephone lines were jammed is not a minor input to a congressman’s vote.
As far as what to do, I’m beginning to think the cure, at least as currently presented, is worse than the disease. It wouldn’t be all that terrible if the “instant gratification” society learned that paying cash in full, at the time of purchase, is a doable do. How to get there without a major hit on the job market is the real problem.
Looks like they’re going to graft it onto the MH Parity Bill, HR 1424.
“How to get there without a major hit on the job market is the real problem.”
Exactly. Main Street America angry over credit crisis. http://tinyurl.com/4rc3ya
point of clarification..
I’m not saying folks should pony up cash for a house or auto, but for most everything else, they should.
Jim I think having a mortar shell land nearby qualifieds a being under fire, don’t you? 99% of the population has never heard a mortar shell go off, let alone feel it. Yes, Biden is a gaffe machine, but this is no comparison to Hillary’s fabrication about Kosovo.
RE: the dems who voted against the bailout. Yes, Pelosi could have slam dunked this bill through, but then it would have been a Democrat’s bill. She needed a substantial number of Republicans to vote for it so it could reasonably be called “bi-partisan”.
By doing this, she also gave some freedom of choice to the Dem reps - who could choose to vote against it if it would serve them better politically. She’s a great party leader in this respect, in much the say way as Tom Delay was.
You can debate the merits (or lack of merits) of this bill all you want — but the reason it failed is because 12 house GOP’ers said they were going to do one thing, and then did something different.
Dora;
there is something wrong with your tinyurl.. It gets me to Rueters, but not the article.
You can debate the merits (or lack of merits) of this bill all you want — but the reason it failed is because 12 house GOP’ers said they were going to do one thing, and then did something different.
—
Well, Then thank God for the “Dirty Dozen”. We’ll forget about the 65 or so democrats who couldnt be convinced.
You really think they are going to suffer the fate of the MN Goper’s? I don’t.
don’t know why it does that. Here’s the full URL: http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE48T7FV20080930?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews
I’m surprised you guys aren’t up on what happened with the House GOoPs on the bailout—WaPo reported the next day that cretinous GOoP-Chief Boehner and his nit-whip Blunt KNEW hours before the vote that they didn’t have anywhere near the GOoPer children on board and they simply decided not to inform Pelosi.
They either didn’t know what to do (deer in headlights), or they knew that the RNC has already prepared and sent out ads denouncing the Dems for husbanding the bailout through and hoped the fool Dems would pass Bush’s Bailout without them. So they’re either fools or treacherous backstabbers, who knows which.
The “Pelosi was mean!” nonsense was a simple lie, the usual tactic of the conserva-GOoP, but which this time embarrassed the GOoP members, hence their denials (as Dora collected), and which 2D as usual can’t understand (Can you actually read, 2D?)
Nothing can possibly be accomplished in the last putrid days of the criminal Bush Era. To buy some time, Dems should throw some money at Paulson to buy some of the crappiest securities held by the weakest banks (what’s another $150 billion thrown into the Bush cr*pper?) and clear out of DC. Real legislation has to wait until we have a real president. Our government is in complete collapse, in case you haven’t noticed.
So it’s up to voters at this point—do they want to watch wrinkly white-haired conservative dude stumble lamely around with his idiot simpleton sidekick Miss Alaska “presiding” over the collapse or give the other party the WH after 8 years of utter failure? Pretty simple decision, nitwits of America.
Les: “Well, Then thank God for the “Dirty Dozen”. We’ll forget about the 65 or so democrats who couldnt be convinced.”
Lets not lose sight of this fact. The votes on that legislation didn’t fall along party lines because it is not a partisan issue. With a handful of exceptions, the votes seemed to fall along the lines of who felt their seat was at risk. Near as I can tell- that’s about it.
Jay;
I concur. Pretty much what I said earlier.. The dirty dozen comment was tounge in cheek.
I’m apol0gizing in advance if you see about 8 posts from me concerning the article Dora linked to. I’m having upload problems, even though the BQ server has pinged me for duplicate inputs a couple of times..will this one make it??
If anyone is able to leave their partisan bias at the door, and abandon the “which party is to blame for this mess” game, I’d challenge anyone to tell me why this legislation, in its current form, is a bad idea…..the gov (ie taxpayer) stands to potnetially make a killing on this, with minimal risk. And free up access to capital, fueling economic growth in the process.
I’ll take you up on that Jay, and submit what I said earlier::
It was a bad bill, no justification for the amount request (”we wanted a really big number” says paulson), creates another government agency (hole to throw most of the 250 billion in), allows banks to become “agents of the Federal government” (whats the matter with the fed reserve banks?), and doesnt address the underlying causes of the mess, that why it didnt pass.
And add the government wasnt created to become a speculative investor.
the way they tweaked the bill, it was not simply a blank check for $700billion, and there isn’t a single underlying cause of the mess for it to address. However, it addressed the most significant one. It would assume the mortgage-backed securities that no one seems to want to own, take those off the books, and allow lenders as well as business to gain access to sound credit again.
You are correct that the government wasn’t created to be a speculative investor, but it wasn’t designed to do a lot of the things that it now does. The opportunity is there for it to address a problem that, if managed properly, has very appealing risk-reward.
As far as creating another governemtn agency to oversee it, unfortunately there isn’t a way around that one. I’ll give you that one. I’d only suggest that the gov probably wouldn’t be able to assume as much of that debt as they’d like, or expect, as private money would out-bid them for it. Lenders would prefer to sell to them anyway, as they would not need to allow themselves to become “agents of the Fed,’ which touches on your other point.
And I still maintain that the reason it didn’t pass had nothing to do with the actual legislation. It had to do with fear. Fear of the public voting them out because the public is fearful themselves and do not have a comprehensive understanding of this issue. Ironically, fear is what also drove us to this point……irrational fear in the marketplace in regards to these securities.
Dora, that article starts with an story directly opposite of the experience I had when I bought a new vehicle on Monday at about noon. It appears that the availability of credit has more to do with your credit score than anything else.
YAY,, finally got a version through!!!
The opportunity is there for it to address a problem that, if managed properly, has very appealing risk-reward
—
If this is such a fantastic deal, investment wise, why would private enterprises not buy and hold the securities, rather than TARP? Isnt that what investors pretty much do?
The problem is the bad debt has little or no value, right?
Your correct that Paulson didnt get his 700 bil, but the 250 isnt based on any had data either. I suspect it is a little low, as is the “really big number”
…..also worth noting that the state of the current credit crisis has very little to do with guys like Les, Dora, or I being able to access credit to buy a new car, and the ability of lenders to borrow between themselves and to negotiate operating lines to major companies, as well as small businesses. Right now, companies are afraid to continue doing routine business with one another, for fear over the state of the stability of one anothers lines of credit. Its ridiculous.
While I cant speak for commodities, When it comes to the stock market, your point about fear is well taken… But that’s true everyday. The Dow runs on the emotions all the time. You should also consider that as a percentage, the swings this week dont even make the top ten stock market downturns.
Les: “The problem is the bad debt has little or no value, right?”
Important question. This gets at the real root of the problem. Today, the “bad” debt has no immediate buyers at reasonable levels. Does that mean it has “no value?” In a mark-to-market world, it means exactly that. In reality, no. It does not.
That is why mark-to-market doesn’t make any sense for something that was not really designed to be traded, but rather, allowed to mature.
To answer your question, the “value” of the bad debt is very likely something well in excess of what someone else is willing to pay for it TODAY, because they think they will be able to buy it cheaper tomorrow. That is what makes it such a lucrative opportunity for whomever does step in and try to own it- in this case- the taxpayer. The market is being irrationally negative on these securities…..embracing models that assume 30-40% default rates and 50% recoverable value on the assets. That’s a tad extreme, yes?
“You should also consider that as a percentage, the swings this week dont even make the top ten stock market downturns.”
That’s a true statement, but the stock market really isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m talking about LIBOR and such that companies use to establish credit. The stock market is a superficial snapshot of emotion on any given day…..unfortunately, the public seems to think it is a deeper indicator than it actually is. If the credit issue is resolved, certainly we can expect the stock market to go up- and vice versa- but they are several dominos removed from one another.
Extreme? Maybe…Maybe not. Still, if I give you your point that they are worth alot sometime in the future, how come private enterpises dont snap em up? I’m not talking about banks, but rather those “risk capital” types. It’s not the only investment that you need to “buy and hold”
I also agree that one or even several such entities probably couldn’t come up with 250 billion real soon, but a couple hundred may be able to. Just the fact that there was some kind of market other than a government bailout would increase their value at no cost to the tax payer.
Unless of course, they really are worthless
Ok… How about this..
Rather than a straight bailout, the government converts the existing savings bond system into a “troubled mortage bond” system.
Everyone who so desires can buy a peice of one of these troubled assets at X% on the dollar with a maturity date 20 years in the future at full face value.
why wouldn’t something like that work.
I tried responding, but I’m having no luck.
“how come private enterpises dont snap em up?”
In a word, greed. Eventhough they can buy them at fifty cents on the dollar today- which is a great deal- they think they may be able to get them at a dime on the dollar tomorrow. All about maximum returns for their investors. These guys are trying to buy the last bank that goes under, not the next one. they want to buy the bottom.
Having Uncle Sam enter the game and price in a floor changes that dynamic.
Jay I can tell you what’s terrible about this bill: actually two things -
1. People can’t understand it
2. It bails out “the fat cats” on Wall Street
These points are related - since people don’t understand it, they don’t GET IT that the “fat cats” on Wall Street provide the grease that keeps our economy moving on a day-to-day basis.
“why wouldn’t something like that work”
I suspect it would……so well in fact that we won’t be given the opportunity to participate. The gov will keep that revenue for themselves.
Sarge: “2. It bails out “the fat cats” on Wall Street”
That’s false, or at very least, less true than you’d believe. It is also a common misconception, which speaks to your #1 point- which is absolutely true.
The “fat cats” who made serious money on these SWAPs and derivatives are already gone. They’ve left the building carrying their bags of money, and we now need to clean up the room after the party. Many of the lenders that mismanaged their risk are also already gone. there is no longer such a thing as an American “investment bank.” These holding that the government is talking about assuming would presumably be bought at a substantial discount to where they were bought/valued and in exchange, the gov gets part of your company for doing that…..and limits your exec’s comp.
That’s certainly not much of a “bailout for fat cats” as I see it…..to the extent that I wouldn’t expect very many to participate anyway. The government would serve as the bouncer willing to break up a bar fight, only to have the participants in the bar fight cease their shenanigans as soon as he walks over to the scrum.
Les: “Extreme? Maybe…Maybe not.”
For the sake of comparison, default rate on these problem mortgages that everyone seems to agree are at or near the base of this issue is apx 4-5%.
That rate was 10-12% in the last 80’s…..the last time we went through a credit crisis of sorts. I’m not sure what comparable rates during the great depression were, or if that would even serve as a valid comparison anymore.
s/b “late” 80’s, obviously……i still wear the long hair to proove I lived it.
BQ filter ate my post against the modified Paulson plan.
Intentionally overpaying for crappy illiquid assets that the holy free market (with all its MBA/finance experts) has supposedly “undervalued” is not going to fly.
parthian:
what is “overpaying?”
paying more than the next guy is willing to, but still much less than the intrinsic worth?
I’ve yet to read an economist (other than Bernanke) that thinks that the buying of illiquid mortgage-backed securities from banks is certain to unblock interbank credit markets and stop credit to Joe Schmoe from drying up.
So we’re going to start buying a pile of very dubious assets, foolishly created, sold and held by Wall Street fraudsters, in hopes of solving a completely different problem because Bushco’s (ex Wall Street) Treas Sec “thinks” it will work.
Sorry, nowhere close to good enough “reasoning” for $350 billion in hard cash.
….also, parthian, the free market doesn’t always work. Anyone with an ounce of brains knows that (even you), and anyone with an ounce of integrity would readily admit that. I would say it works something in excess of 95% of the time. This is one of those times it has failed. That’s a fact. Don’t bother wasting your time trying to frame it as some sort of anti-right wing this-or-that.
The free market works extremely well most of the time. “Most” does not equal “all.”
“I’ve yet to read an economist (other than Bernanke) that thinks that the buying of illiquid mortgage-backed securities from banks is certain to unblock interbank credit markets and stop credit to Joe Schmoe from drying up.”
Then you haven’t been looking very hard. And again, Joe Schmoe isn’t the one who needs the access to credit…..Joe Schmoe’s employer does, to prevent the need to downsize Joe.
No one knows the “intrinsic worth”, jay. Don’t pretend they do. I’m much more willing to believe the market’s current value than some made up “intrinsic worth”.
In our system, the market determines intrinsic worth. When did you start doubting the one solid aspect of the free market? We’re really seeing some odd behavior on the part of “capitalists” these days. Strange times—and no I’m not trying to insult you, what you’re saying is being said everywhere by once orthodox free marketeers.
You’re basically stating that financial markets are now irrational in how they value assets. Is this analysis just limited to these particular mortage backed assets? Why ever would that be?
“because Bushco’s (ex Wall Street) Treas Sec “thinks” it will work.”
….also worth noting that Obama thinks it will work. He got in front of the microphone a few days ago and suggested to a crowd of voters that he thinks, if properly managed, the government stands to make a profit on this. I tip my hat to the man for being so candid on a very unpopular issue.
I disagree with him on many other issues, but Obama seems to have a firm grasp of this one.
“Why ever would that be?”
A cocktail of panic and fear. I’ve already adequately explained this multiple times on this thread. I don’t take it as an insult. I take it as an indication that you are not paying close enough attention.
I’ll ask you this…….do you believe that 100% of the the so-called “bad” mortgages will be defaulted on, and the salvage value of the underlying asset will be worth $0? That is obviously an exaggerration, but that is how these things are being priced. While no one knows “for sure” what they are actually worth, or would be worth if allowed to mature; common sense needs to intervene at some point and say “the scenerio being priced into the market is not realistic.”
That is where we are at today. The “market” that you say you would be more willing to believe, is a “no bid” market, largely out of irrational fear. A “free market” doesn’t exist when you are missing one side or the other.
I’d say that no one has a solid idea how these mortgage-backed securities are going to perform over time, and that since they were basically bets that house prices would keep rising (and they’re not going for a long, long time), these assets aren’t going to perform well no matter how long they are held. That’s the market’s current judgment as well.
Remember, these things are NOT the mortgages themselves—that’s what people fail to undertstand, even members of Congress don’t seem to get it. This was financial alchemy that NEVER should have been allowed to be performed.
“Is this analysis just limited to these particular mortage backed assets?”
No. Happens all the time…..usually on a much smaller scale that isn’t as tributary to this degree of other entities. This gets back to mark-to-market accounting, which is another topic for another day.
“This was financial alchemy that NEVER should have been allowed to be performed.”
I suspect you are taking about swaps and derivatives again. My understanding is that we ARE talking about the government backing (insuring is probably the wronmg word) the actual mortgages themselves. They are not bets that the housing market would keep going up- everyone knew that wouldn’t last. They are bets that people will make every attempt possible to hang onto their homes.
I’d still take that bet. Look at it this way……pass the bill, and if 100% of the people truely do default on their mortgages, the gov could be “long” section 8 housing as a hedge.
You’re just falling into the “only a few mrtgages are going bad so these securities are really worth something”. That’s not how they work, they’re extraordinarily complicated and once defaults start, whole tranches become utterly worthless.
And house prices are still falling, massively. And they won’t be coming back for more than a decade in most of the worst hit areas, where the most houses were sold. These assets are very dubious.
Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that you know more about valuing mortgage-backed securities and derivatives than, say, Warren Buffet’s boys. If these things were a steal, he’d buy ‘em in a flash, panic or no. Guys like Buffet LOVE panics, always have.
He’s demanding massive equity in Goldman, not their mortgage-backed securities.
Don’t fall into the trap of claiming something is “very complicated” when you run out of ammo.
I work with these guys all day, every day. I am familiar with how they work and what motivates them. They have forced their way into many industries and act just as ruthless- unfortunately.
The mortgage-backed securities are not as complicated as you may think. It would require that someone drill down through the bundles of debt to remove the toxins……not an easy task, but certainly possible and necessary. Once they are removed, there is no “cascade” once we rid the sector of mark-to-market.
i already explained why Buffet-types don’t want to own these today, so i see no reason to repeat myself.
Parthian: Do you find the least bit of irony in the fact that I am stuck defending Obama and the Democratic leadership against you?
parth: “You’re just falling into the “only a few mrtgages are going bad so these securities are really worth something”. ……And house prices are still falling, massively.”
I’m otta here pretty soon, but i would leave you with a final thought, in relation to those comments:
I haven’t said “only a few will go bad,” but I have pointed out that only 4% are bad now. Only 10-12% were bad the last cycle we went through (300% worse than today). Depending on what you wish to call a “realistic” rate of potential default, the value of homes won’t matter on that other %, as those notes would be honored and paid in full. I won’t waste time asking how you are defining “massive” price depreciation in housing, due to this fact……we’ll just agree that the “massive” exposure exists on only 4% of them today.
Well, if it were that easy and if there was obvious real value there, the world’s massive pools of private equity would start buying some of these assets right now, not waiting.
The reality is that private finance experts have concluded it’s likely crap–and certainly not worth a premium price, which is what the Paulson plan assumes. They aren’t going to rush in as soon as the Treasury starts buying all these “great deals”. That’s fantasy.
And you’re defending Bush and his Treasury secretary—it’s their plan.
I gotta say I am with parth on much of this, too. If it was great value, then the govt wouldnt need to step into the fray. The trouble is alot of this seemed to be bundled into that nebulus derivative crap that likely implodes further as houses decline in 2009.
Yet, Parth is always of the opinion it’s always the Bushco, because “it’s their plan.”
Yet, this is a Dem Congress and has been for almost two full years, and like the budget busting rebate fraud of this spring, this “bailout” goes nowhere without the Dems calling the shots.
And if they pass this crap, the Dems cement themselves as the most budget busting fiscally irresponsible Congress this country has EVER witnessed. And it wont even be close, an especially sad statement when one considers some of the drunken sailor spending of the repubs in the last decade.
OT may be holding out on his return for the day a Dora or Parth actually criticize the Dems. So OT is probably gone for good……
:o)
SgtPendleton says:
October 1st, 2008 at 9:02 am
Jim I think having a mortar shell land nearby qualifieds a being under fire, don’t you?
Fair enough. But where’s the beef?
Do you know a story substantiating this type of claim? I mean, live on some posts and you could feel the shelling from practice rounds. The claim below, if true, is again ridiculous, plain and simple.
All I see is this, and I know it;s from horrible Foxnews, but if true is gaffe # 99 why this guy isnt fit to run a boy scout group:
But when questioned about the episode afterward by the Hill newspaper, Biden backpedaled from his claim of being “shot at” and instead allowed: “I was near where a shot landed.”
The senior senator from Delaware went on to say that some sort of projectile “landed” outside a building in the Green Zone where he and another senator had spent the night during a visit in December 2005. The lawmakers were shaving in the morning when they felt the building shake, Biden said.
“No one got up and ran from the room-it wasn’t that kind of thing,” he told the Hill. “It’s not like I had someone holding a gun to my head.”
The rest of the press ignored ….
6DJ, I criticized the Dems for caving to Cheney on the Iraq occupation funding and his escalating of the “war”.
I criticized the Dems (bitterly) for immunizing the lawbreaking executive with their FISA giveaway.
I critized the Dems for not impeaching the Lawbreaker in Chief, Cheney, which was their biggest mistake.
And I criticize them for accepting this “Bailout of the Investment Bankers” as the only approach that was even considered for the credit “crisis”. No approach could have been more friendly to our corrupt, reckless and heedless financial industry.
At many turns, though, they were obstinately prevented from doing the right thing or the best thing for the public good by the most worthless failed president in history, and the greatest obstructionist party in senate history. So the Dems failures can be at least explained and somewhat forgiven.
Bush’s failures cannot. Nor can the failure of “conservatism”, the most disastrous political movement in our history after secessionism.
Although you won’t hear it from the liberal MSM, the Democrats are mainly responsible for this financial mortgage mess. The libs passed the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, which required banks to lend in low-income neighborhoods. President Clinton’s 1995 regulations allowed banks to lower their eligibility standards and lend to marginal borrowers. These so-called subprime mortgages eventually led to this sorry mess we are in. Sorry to ruin the anti-free market bedtime story the libs are trying to feed us but the truth is easy to see.
Reaganism is thankfully and finally dead. Americans 30 year long experiment with fascism is over.
Les, civilians react to and remember things much differently than active military folks — so I can see why a moment like that would have been a big deal to him. I have a theory about this: the closer people get to actual combat, the more likely they are to tell people about it — up to a point. Once they reach a certain level of exposure, they clam up and don’t want to talk about it.
So I think for Biden, that was a pretty big deal in his life - to hear and feel something go off close by. The green zone was subject to the occasional mortar fire in 2004 and 2005 wasn’t it?
But about the gaffes in general - we’ve had almost 8 years of a gaffe-prone president, so I don’t think it should preclude someone from office.
Les asked yesterday :”Rather than a straight bailout, the government converts the existing savings bond system into a “troubled mortage bond” system….Everyone who so desires can buy a peice of one of these troubled assets at X% on the dollar with a maturity date 20 years in the future at full face value.”
FWIW, Barney Frank gave an interview last night in which he mentioned that something of this nature was actually already in their plans, but probably wouldn’t be implemented until next year.
I’d buy into that in a heartbeat. But I can’t imagine how they could structure that like a zero-coupon type thing, when the underlying securities would actually be paying P&I.
Agreed…..I’m curious to see how they’d structure that. The jist of the interview was that if public money would be used for this purpose, then Congress would be somewhat obligated to figure out a way to allow public participation in a program like that.
It would presumably be very attractive, versus straight treasuries.
I will assume Sarge has no further media story on Biden’s “brush with death.” Biden was probably watching that old televised FDR speech on the 1929 stock market crash when the bombs hit……..
I see Sarge devotes his time to KK as well.
And Parth, of course, disagrees with the Dems for not impeaching this lawless regime. Did you print that with a big smile on your face? Pretty lame, but maybe you offered it as humor so I will take it as such.
How about you and Dora on your beloved Dem Congress, in less than two years racking up a 500 bil deficit? Then give out rebates in the spring without any money. And now the big bailout, and tacking on an extra hundred billion as chump change for pet projects.
Do you ever offer any real criticism of the left’s fiscal policies. Their mismanagement is amazing, and it is Pelosi forwarding these budgetbusting numbers……….she is a bug eyetwitching dolt who is only 2 heartbeats away from President.
Talk about your Nightmare on Main Street.
6DJ: “I gotta say I am with parth on much of this, too. If it was great value, then the govt wouldnt need to step into the fray. The trouble is alot of this seemed to be bundled into that nebulus derivative crap that likely implodes further as houses decline in 2009.”
Spoken like someone who:
a) has no experience or familiarity with OTC swaps or derivatives
b) didn’t bother to read (or try to understand) a single post I made on this subject
Cute to see you and parthian agree on something though.
I’m sorry Jim. I forgot you’re kind of sensitive about people responding to your posts.
I’m basing my opinion on what Biden himself said, as quoted in the Fox News, about hearing something landing nearby that shook the building. I am assuming he’s telling the truth that the building shook.
Sarge, doesn’t bother me at all. Yesterday morning you had implied
a mortar shell had landed “nearby.” Of course, in Biden world that could
be a ten miles if one is comparing it to 1,000 miles. I was unsure if you
had seen some new info, but of course it was “no.”
The people who live in North Mpls are more combat hardened than “fightin’ Joe.” It amazes me how this guy is allowed to continue.
He makes Tom Eagleton look George Washington.
Spoken like someone who:
a) has no experience or familiarity with OTC swaps or derivatives
b) didn’t bother to read (or try to understand) a single post I made on this subject
Wow. Harsh.
I understand some of the derivative concept but I have zero shame
in admitting that much of the investment bank usage of these is beyond comprehension except to those intricately involved in the “business.” It is obvious most media and national politicians were clueless, so I am in good company.
While I really find your posts quite informative, your insights occasionally are DOA (ie greed =private groups are waiting for the absolute bottom………you must have missed
many of these companies not waiting to swallow competitors, BAC, Buffet, Citigroup,etc making Merrill, Goldman, and Wachie deals).
As for this bailout “being a potential great deal for the Gov’t”, the internet bubble and corporate accting fraud of 1999-2002 proved the folly of “catching a falling knife.”
The stocks that just couldn’t go lower!!!!!! QCOM’s GBLX JDSU!!!!! did go lower, and econ 101 should teach that in the here and now, with both the broader stock market AND gold stocks BOTH plummeting, the future is not in anyway, shape, or form, predictable.
Wow! Even a fight now for Wachovia.
Seems like private companies are fighting now for the more attractive deals.
And, employment #’s woeful, 2 mil plus jobs lost in the last year of Pelosi-land.
“It is obvious most media and national politicians were clueless, so I am in good company.”
I gotta give you that one.
“you must have missed
many of these companies not waiting to swallow competitors”
Not at all…..but its not private money. The examples you mentioned were publicly traded companies buying up competitors. “Buffet” is pretty much a public entity because anyone can jump in and buy Berkshire, if they have the money. My suspicion is that you will begin to see more and more of this, as well as some private and/or soverign wealth money start to enter the picture, as Congressional action would create the “bottom” that I have been talking about.
The comparison to internet stocks is a tad weak as well. You are correct that the future is unpredictable, but this legislation is in no way “betting on teh stock market.” This legislation is betting on the fact that the vast majority of people who have mortgages on a home will make every effort to keep paying them off and stay in their homes. 30% default rates just aren’t realistic. I don’t even think double-digit rates of default are very likely, though we have seen that level before, so we need to consider it a possibility.
It’s human nature to try to understand current events in terms of the past - I think that’s why it’s hard for most people to understand how dire the current circumstance is. It’s completely unprecedented.
Sarah Palin quote:
“The way that I have understood the world is with inalienable rights not when that could ultimately, adversely, effect a plan to keep America secure.”
- Courtesy of the Sarah Palin Quote Generator:
http://palinquotes.sillycloud.com/
“I just visited all 57 states”
Just one of Obama’s quotes.
Sgt: “that’s why it’s hard for most people to understand how dire the current circumstance is. It’s completely unprecedented.”
Except its really not all that unprecedented. That’s what we’ve been told though. Say it enough times, I guess it becomes true.
Ah, dusted that one off eh?
You know, the thing about Palin is she’s a great person. Likeable, attractive…she can be sweet and funny too. She could be your neighbor, or something you’d run into at church.
But watching last night’s debate, I kept thinking, do I want an “average American” as vice president? The answer is no I don’t - the President and VP should be freakin superstars - I want a really smart person in there, like Bush 41 or Clinton.
The House will pass the absurd Paulson Bailout bill today, or else there will be a financial panic. The bill will throw an enormous amount of tax money into what is now an unstoppable hurricane, to no effect. We’ve gone over the edge.
Years of reckless “conservative” disregard, disdain and hatred of the most basic commone sense government oversight over finance and corporate America have now resulted in complete catastrophe, with the feds desperately throwing money at an oncoming economic tsunami they are powerless to contain. Just like the 20s, rash excesses in the financial industry (enabled by deregulating conservatives at every turn) have destroyed the economy.
As I long said, Bush will be remembered as the Worst President Ever for his massive ECONOMIC failure, not his (also) massive foreign policy failures. That has now come to pass. Indeed, things are now worse than the most extreme Doomsayer predicted.
The bailout bill simply is a desperate attempt to keep the banking industry on its feet and (supposedly) lending. Economists doubt that it will even have that effect, but it has now become a necessary “symbol” that something is being done. But the bigger problem is that with the bursting of the housing bubble, which was the only thing holding up consumer spending and propelling Bush’s fake “expansion”, a deep recession is now underway, which will be devastating and long lasting.
Home sales and auto sales are off a cliff, house prices are falling at historic levels and aren’t close to stopping, consumer spending is contracting, jobs are disappearing, unemployment is quickly increasing (U6 is now at 11%—unemployment in the Great Depression was 25%). The National debt is now over $10 trillion (up over $4 trillion under Bush) on its way to $11 trillion. Public debt issues (treasuries) are crowding out all other corporate debt, placing companies in crisis mode, but the government has to borrow the money.
At every corner is another disaster.
Jay, has there been a crisis like this in the past, where there was an acute shortage of credit?
And Pollyanna jay whistles his happy tune, while reminding us it was worse in the Great Depression. Yes, you can try to take comfort in that.
Well, sure Sgtp, there was a time of acute shortage of credit and bank failures.
It was called the Great Depression.
“It was called the Great Depression.”
Actually, we went through a cycle apx 20 yrs ago. The Depression is obviously the best known example……mostly because no one bothered to do anything to address the problem. Thus, we have apparently learned from past mistakes.
To respond to Sarge on the credit thing…..tough to say. Have we ever been through a situation where lenders became overly cautious about credit risk? Sure. have we ever seen anything exactly like today? I assume not…..mostly because what is partly fueling today’s problem is modern-day accounting methods that are flawed, new trading vehicles that many do not fully understand (including some of the people actually trading them), up-to-the-second media coverage that can create widespread panic in minutes rather than days or weeks….lots of things making this situation more challenging to deal with than similar instances in our history. So my short answer is that the actual issue of credit risk is certainly no unprecedented. The hoopla surrounding this one may be.
If we can pull through Jimmy Carter’s failed liberal policies, we can pull through this. We just need to keep the government out of places it doesn’t belong from now on. Government created this mess!
D2:
You are half-right. We need to keep the government out of places it doesn’t belong. We also need to recognize that when it needs to intervene, it is allowed to do so swiftly and effectively. Firefighters do not belong in my house…….until it is on fire. Then they need to arrive quickly, effectively, and then leave again. The government is there to protect us, not babysit us.
“we have apparently learned from past mistakes”.
Exactly wrong. What’s occurring right now is literally a replay of the pro-business, lassez faire conservative approach of the Repub 1920s, which resulted in a stock market crash, that spread to the financial sector, which ultimately brought on the Great Depression.
Banks in the 20s became massive broker dealers, selling ponzi scheme “securities” to clients in an unregulated securities market where people hadn’t the slightest idea what was behind the largely fake securities. The crash of the resulting bubble obliterated trillions in wealth and smashed hundreds of banks, contracting credit, industry and consumer demand.
The lib’rul New Deal came in with massive new gub’mint regulation of finance—FDIC insurance, increased bank regulation, prohibition of commercial banks and insurance companies from creating and selling securities (investment banking), a new agency to regulate broker dealers and all traded securities (the SEC). A new agency to buy gub’mint approved mortages and hold them (Fannie), etc.
But people forgot the lessons of idiot hands-off “conservative” capitalism and with the rise of the horrible conservative movement over the past 30 years, one by one many New Deal protections were repealed by conservatives, culminating in the Phil Gramm bill to repeal all restrictions on commercial banking in late 1999. That and the refusal by Bush’s SEC to actually look at and properly regulate the mortage backed securities being created and issued in torrents put us where we are today–collapse.
Pinheads like 2D can recite their know-nothing slogans just as Miss Alaska did last night, although 2D makes Palin look like Madame Curie. As the entire economy implodes, conserva-twits like 2D are still mouthing the very platitudes that got us into the mess—”Keep government out! Government created this mess!”—even as we pass the largest private bailout bill in history to avert a meltdown at the 11th hour.
Well the petrified national leaders (Dem and Repub) have now passed their bailout bill—how many days or weeks will it “stabilize” the situation? Not very long, I’ll wager. The Bell now tolls our demise, a demise of our own making, by foolishly listening (once again) to the lies of the tycoons, and the idiot claptrap of “conservatism”. It serves us right.
parthian: “What’s occurring right now is literally a replay of the pro-business, lassez faire conservative approach of the Repub 1920s, which resulted in a stock market crash, that spread to the financial sector, which ultimately brought on the Great Depression.”
I’d agree that you have the right idea here. If today’s Congress had failed to take action to address the problem, as was the case in the 20’s, I’d say your argument is valid.
But as we all know, that’s not what happened this time.
parth, your Dem leaders hammerred out this legislation. The Republicans attempted to block it, which ultimately failed. Obama is behind it. Klobuchar is behind it. Dodd is behind it. Many others are very much in support of these measures. The only thing you appear to be pissed about is that it happened under GWB administration, and prevented the possibility that your party could “ride in to the rescue” under a different administration. Your objections are phony and very transparent.
Ha-ha, there will be plenty left to “rescue” in the future, this ill thought out throwing of money at the financial tsunami isn’t going to solve a thing, it doesn’t reform the out-of-control financial system that got us here, it doesn’t begin to raise revenues to pay for itself, and it doesn’t halt in the slightest the deep, deep recession we are now in. There’s plenty of work for a reponsible (i.e. lib’rul) government left to do.
The Dem Congress stemmed a financial panic today—that I agree with. This terrible Bushco plan had turned into a “symbol” of “action” and had to be passed or we would have had a financial meltdown on the spot. That’s something, and the Dem Congress can take the credit for “doing” something.
I’ll bet the Hooverite Repubs were the bulk of those voting no, but I haven’t seen the vote totals…..at least the Dems who voted no were backing an alternate plan.
“it doesn’t reform the out-of-control financial system that got us here, it doesn’t begin to raise revenues to pay for itself, and it doesn’t halt in the slightest the deep, deep recession we are now in.”
It does not reform the financial system. Everyone seems to be in agreement that this is an important next step. It does have the potential to pay for itself, but since no one knows what the cost actually is, its useless to debate at this point. Plus, you don’t seem to be able to grasp that part of the equation anyway, so its a waste of time all around. It does not halt the recession, but recessions should not be “halted.” They need to be managed properly, but they are a natural and necessary part of the economic cycle. Runaway growth forever is not a viable plan.
So we seem to be able to agree on 2 of 3 here…….not too shabby.
“That’s something, and the Dem Congress can take the credit for “doing” something”
I’m still waiting for them to take credit for fighting their own exec (Clinton) who supported measures to prevent this back when he was President. They don’t seem to want to take that credit though. Wierd.
I’m just glad that Nancy Pelosi didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings again.
not to worry Sarge…..the Senate made sure there were enough pet projects included in that final bill to buy off the necessary votes in the House.
Partisan,
In any case, government created this mess, and they need to stay away from idiotic ideas like telling banks to lower their qualifications so minorities who can’t afford them can buy homes. This is what started the whole mess. Illegal aliens were even able to cash in on this one!.
Jay, you might be right that we need government to step in to prevent things from getting worse, but they caused the problem in the first place. And liberals want government to take over our health care industry? That’s insane!
More blocked posts!
What is going on here?
You’re posting stupid and racist comments, D2.
Since you’re apparently inacapable of understanding this on your own, let me try to explain it to you: “Minorities” have nothing to do with this mess. It’s the shady mortgage originators who took advantage of poor people — they started them out on teaser rates and interest-only payments.
It’s also people thinking (and being told by real estate and mortgage people) that the housing values will continue to climb - in that situation, it actually makes sense to buy a house, then refinance it after a couple of years. But when the housing values stop rising, people get stuck, and that’s exactly what happened. I would bet that far fewer conventional FHA mortgages are in default.
DTSI-bot, they obviously have a new ’stupid’ filter. Unfortunately, some of your posts are getting through.
““Minorities” have nothing to do with this mess.”
I’m not blaming minorities, don’t get me wrong, but a high percentage of the people the liberals were trying to get into houses they couldn’t afford happen to be minorities, even some illegal aliens benefited because banks allowed them to use tax ID’s instead of SS numbers.
Your right, there are other factors involved as well, but government sticking there nose in where it doesn’t belong is a major reason for this mess.
Dora,
Don’t quit your day job.
Don’t all speak up at once now.
D2, you can’t even see the racism in your own comment.
“D2, you can’t even see the racism in your own comment.”
Please explain yourself Mister!
Check out this link if you can stomach the news the Strib probably won’t report:
h*tp://www.anti-strib.blogspot.com/
It seems the state of California is now asking for a federal bailout, much of it due to illegal aliens on welfare.
D2SI - I have tried to post a number of times in response to your posts being blocked. Every time I do mine get blocked too. Hmm.
What is up with the blocking? Are only liberal voices to be heard? We could read your newspaper if we wanted that much bias.
CNC, it’s not the strib that does this — it’s WordPress, which hosts the blogs.
It’s easy to get around with a little experimenting. It’s also a good idea to compose your post on Notepad (or something like it) and paste it in. That way you don’t spend 5 minutes writing something only to have it zapped into nothing.
If it gets denied, go through and look for words that may set it off. If you still have problems, past it in one sentence at a time, and you can find the problem that way.
Sometimes brackets or parentheses will set it off.
The Conservative Noise Machine (Fox, etc) is running bogus nonsense about the Community Redevelopment Act and the housing bubble 24/7 right now, so conservative dogbrains like 2Dim and Preacher Cash are literally drunk out of their minds with pinheaded fact-free buffoonery right now—-they can’t help it, they have to pour the Fox News/Rushbo Limburger poison down their gullets. They’re “conserva-news” addicts.
It’s just the usual Rovian dogwhiste to create a wedge issue against hated minorities, a tactic which works especially well with race obsessed conservatives. It worked with our low grade pinhead electorate in the past, and I’m sure it’ll have some effect now, as facts and actual information hold no sway with many braindead American fools.
The question is how many independent voters can be fooled by Repub lies and filth again. That’s always the conservative Repub calculation when they throw this openly stupid and racist crap out there.
The liberal media seems thrilled with the polls showing Barack Obama gaining..
“Obama leaps ahead of McCain.
The democrats lead in the state is tied to the ECONOMY, the debate and a new party strength.”
-Bob Von Sternberg:Star Tribune
Maybe the American people bought into Nancy Pelosi’s LIE that this whole financial crisis was caused by Republicans? It’s interesting how things were going pretty well until the democrats took control of BOTH HOUSES.
It’s hard to imagine that so many Americans think that electing the most liberal Senator in U.S. history with a Congress dominated by leftist fruitcakes like Pelosi will do anything less than make the Jimmy Carter years look prosperous, in my opinion.
“CNC, it’s not the strib that does this — it’s WordPress, which hosts the blogs.”
Something else is going on as well Sarge. Katherine Kerstin’s blog uses the same setup and I can post no problem there while the same exact post gets blocked here. I think Cash is right that liberals have an easier time getting through.
Partisan,
Ever thought of defecting to Cuba or North Korea? Your commie B.S. might be appreciated there.
God you are stupid, 2D. The BQ lib’rul media software “pre-indentifes” the lib’ruls, right. All this shows is the wild paranoia that runs rampant in wingnut “minds” like yours and Preacher Cash’s.
As for the “commies”, who do you think you would have voted for in the 1932 elections in Germany? I have a pretty good idea…..
And for the non-morons out there, it’s the Community Reinvestment Act, I got the name wrong, sorry.
Partisan,
You know me, I would never vote for something called the National Social*st (NAZI) party. That seems more up your alley.
“it’s the Community Reinvestment Act, I got the name wrong, sorry.”
Whether you call it “Community” or “Commun*st” Reinvestment Act Partisan, I don’t think it’s governments’ role to be involved in social engineering like and just makes things worse as we are seeing. And you want to let them run our health care industry? That’s insane Partisan!
I just heard that Barack Obama now has his own channel on Dish Network. This seems like overkill though since he already has ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN, MTV, MSNBC, etc.
Good one D2SI - I am surprised that one made it by the filter. I guess you didn’t mention the StarTrib…
Thanks Cash,
It’s true! Barack Hussein Obama has his own Dish Network channel. I hear he’s getting a lot of money from overseas and can afford this kind of thing.
parth,
dont forget ultraright SNL:
after Tiny Fey’s Palin parody, they brutalized Pelosi, Frank and Soros on the mortgage mess.
Those damn conservatives on SNL!
D2, KK’s blog is on a different account and probably has different settings.
Parth, my favorite part is this myth that somehow everything was just hunky dory until 2006 — when Democrats got a 1 vote majority in the Senate and something like a 7 vote majority in the house.
…like this whole mess could have taken two years to create. I’d imagine it took about 10 years to create this mess, and if you want to blame someone, blame Greenspan who cut rates to avoid a recession — one that probably wouldn’t have taken place.
Well, nothing can be accomplished with a “conservative” president, SgtP, one whose entire focus is the laming of every federal agency by staffing it with gub’mint hating conservatives to hollow it out from within. The election of the idiot McCain in these circumstances would signal the end of the country, certainly as a democracy.
The collapse of America is now underway. The economy is imploding as a result of the conservatives’ utter refusal to regulate the financial markets and the intentional blowing of an enormous real estate bubble (housing and commercial) by the Fed and Bushco.
We are now submerged by personal and public debt, with no room to maneuver. Massive layoffs will be coming as many businesses collapse or cut back tremendously. There won’t be very much credit available, and house prices will continue to fall, further weakening the financial sector. Taxes on the rich must be raised and we must find sectors of the bloated federal budget to cut—”defense” should be first on the list, but won’t be.
America is now in abrupt decline, both ecomomically and as a “model” for the rest of the world. The Bush Era has destroyed us a world leader and as a great economic power, we won’t ever get that leadership back.
And to think I used to argue with 6DJ less than a year ago that the fundamentals of the economy were a disaster, while he regaled me with how many MN boobs he saw out squandering their money on luxury steak dinners! Think there’s a recession now, 6DJ? Times scary enough for ya? Good times, good times……Repubs: the Party that Wrecked America ™.
Oh god, dont be such an putz, Parth.
Oh wait, that’s what you are.
Yes, it is pretty bad now, how you loving that Dem Congress? It’s been their show for almost 2 years.
They doing a good job for you, you running out to vote for another two years?
There wasnt a recession a year ago, was there? Or do you have you own basement #’s on GDP?
And yes, it is scary out there now:
Stock market collapse, unemployment at 6.1 %, banks failing, inflation lurking, no car sales, and on and on.
Why dont you give me the 5 numbers from when the Dems took power in 1/07 vs now:
GDP
Dow
Inflation rate
Unemployment
Budget deficit
You are a self-proclaimed “genius,” put out the then and now numbers and let’s grade your Dem buddies. F F F F-
I think there is a recession now, but only you would “time-travel” the economic numbers from a year ago into this economic disaster that has exploded in the here and now.
And, of course, in your basement, the Dems are somehow the solution.
Jedi-Parth, when even SNL is lampooning this all-time LAME Congress, it’s time to start your Stelazine again. Try to embrace some reality:
Dems elected to power, 11/06, is reality Jedi-Parth.
I say let the Dems win next month.
Who wants to inherit this sad mess, another two years might return Repubs for the rest of this century, not that it will ease the suffering of the here and now.
P.S.
please, paste those economic numbers for all of us to see.
Sarge:
there is obviously plenty of bipartisan blame.
Fact: 2006 seems like an old, beloved memory compared to now.
It’s the Parth’s of the world who view it as 0% Dem fault.
Good luck selling that snake oil.
I couldnt agree more with your point:
monetary policy has killed us.
recessions are normal, they should have let it happen if it was too happen
Pinheads like 6DJ never get beyond the “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” mindset. They can never figure anything out and never will. It’s not the Dem Congress, it’s the Repub Executive who brought on the whole mess, with groundwork laid by the corrupt Repub Congress of 2001-06. All of the current economic explosions were foreordained by clear trends over a year ago–that’s how I could predict them!
You’re at the level of retards like 2D, 6DJ—you can’t even make an economic argument. And when the history of this major recession is written, it will be concluded to have begun in Dec 2007. Believe it or not.
So you’re wrong again, just as you are always and everywhere wrong about everything—because as a poison-brained conservative white male, you can no longer think, or even mimic thinking.
“Conservative” presidents are ALWAYS spendthrifts, and ALWAYS blow the federal budget. Reagan, Bush I, Bush II. History will saddle Bushco with the budget devastatation he presided over 2001-08, NOT the Dem Congress of the past two years, which tried to at least shut down the Iraq quagmire and its absurd costs, which Bush successfully fought off. But keep up your ravings, it’s par for the course.
Bush and the “conservative” tax cuts and out of control military spending are the reasons for the budget disaster, Bush would never have agreed to ending his signature tax cuts early or increasing taxes on the rich, as Dems favor. And of course Bush the conservative declared that both the stimulus package and the Bailout were “critical”.
But this current crisis is the culmination of the massive explosion of heedless private debt and unregulated bank leverage which was building for the past 8 years—which Bushco in its conservative “Do Nothingness” ignored. Now the (long predicted by me) financial hurricane has arrived and is tearing up everything in its path. The ongoing federal budget crisis will be the second act of the disgusting drama: America’s Conservative Failure.
Partisan,
I suppose you AND Barack Hussein Obama both feel that Iran is just a little country and not a threat, am I right Partisan? You are probably also one of those leftists like Obama’s racist anti-American “pastor” and leftist talk show host Bill Maher who think that America deserved 9-11, am I right Partisan? You probably even agree with Obama’s unrepentant terrorist buddy Bill Ayers that he didn’t do anything wrong and that he wishes he would have done more damage to America, am I right Partisan?
Correction parth - the Republicans had control of the legislative and executive branches from January 2001 to January 2007.
Fortunately Parth, I only laugh at you and your absurd thoughts. You are master of your blog fantasy world.
Actually, you’ve been predicting a recession for years. Bold, since it is a natural part of the cycle = it always recurs.
It only took your beloved Dem Congress to deliver it, but even I will allow its roots go back 15 years, ….even funnier that you cite only 8 years (shock!). You must have missed that deregulation bill that passed with bipartisan support and Clinton signed in 1999.
Not surprising since you are an idiot of the highest order, and I salute you.
,,,,but like OT, why waste my time arguing with a childlike mental case?
6DJ - if you think he sounds like an idiot, you sound like one too - everyone knows (especially voters) that the razor-thin majority didn’t give Dems enough oomph to get bills passed. That’s why the Dems will make big gains once again in the house and senate.
“That’s why the Dems will make big gains once again in the house and senate.”
If the liberal democrats make more gains in the House and Senate, and especially an Obama win, it would be due to ignorance of this issues. More idiots will be voting in this election that ever before.
Time to put that stupid claim about the “angry left” to bed now. This is what the McCain/Palin ticket, and the Republican Party, has devolved into. Sickening and horrifying at the same time.
“So we have McCain today getting his crowd riled up asking who Barack Obama is and then apparently giving a wink and a nod when one member of the crowd screams out “terrorist.”
And later we have Sarah Palin with the same mob racket, getting members of the crowd to yell out “kill him”, though it’s not clear whether the call for murder was for Bill Ayers or Barack Obama. It didn’t seem to matter.”
“Palin then went on to blame Katie Couric’s questions for her “less-than-successful interview with kinda mainstream media.” At that, Palin supporters turned on reporters in the press area, waving thunder sticks and shouting abuse. Others hurled obscenities at a camera crew. One Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at an African American sound man for a network and told him, “Sit down, boy.”
Actually, that does absolutely nothing to put the “angry left” contention to bed. What it does illustrate is that there is anger (at least, among the public) on both sides…..which certainly shouln’t come as a shock to anyone. It is unfortunate and saddening that some folks still feel the need to resort to racial comments when faced with that anger though, just as it is equally frustrating when the opposing side resorts to the “blame wealthy white men” mentality.
This election can not come to a close fast enough.
As usual Jay, you’re full of it.
Does that mean, Dora, that you dont think Gore won anymore, and Kerry was just plain incompetent with his campaign?
For the record, assuming your claims above are accurate, that aint no way for McCain and Palin to win.
Having said that, your assumption that the left isnt angry merely because you find examples of angry conservatives is bogus. You should reconsider who full of what.
Dora: “As usual Jay, you’re full of it.”
Wow. What a sophisticated retort. I suppose, given the maturity of the argument that Dora lays out here, that I am obligated to come back with the “I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I” defense.
What happened to you ignoring my posts? That seemed to work better for everyone. And it didn’t make you look nearly as foolish either. Everybody wins.
“assuming your claims above are accurate” Haven’t you seen the news Les? And today at a Palin rally “treason” was screamed from the audience when she again mischaracterized what Obama said about Afghanistan.
Jay find me any campaign event held by any Democratic candidate, not only for President but for any office, in which the candidates have inspired such hatred that their supporters yelled out “terrorist”, “kill him”, “treason” and that screamed obscenities and racial epitaphs at the press. There simply is no comparison. If you can’t condemn that then you are the pos that OT always railed against.
“If you can’t condemn that”
I did….read the post.
FWIW, I certainly do not condone racial slurs. No one should. The comments about “terrorist” or “treason” could likely be heard at a rally involving either group, and we both know that. Let’s be adults here. We’ve seen comments of that nature posted right here….no need to go exploring for documentation of it happening elsewhere.
No, jay, comparable vicious comments about McCain and the evil lib’rul media are not heard at Obama rallies. Find some examples from the news if you so fervently think they are. Dora presented actual examples currently being reported by national press. You haven’t.
You base your “pox on both houses” arguments (as always) on a complete lack of evidence, relying instead simply on what you want to believe, not on what there is a empirical basis for believing.
I said we need to look no further than this site to substantiate how the left thinks/voices their opinion….and you are among the worst of them, parthian, when it comes to blindly spitting venom in the opposing direction. Am I to believe that somehow everyone is magically well-behaved because they are at a campaign rally?
By “lack of evidence” I assume you mean some obscure link to a story, and I don’t have one for you or Dora to enjoy.
I also don’t have a link to substantiate the fact that my house has tan siding with dark brown trim. But that doesn’t make it any less of a reality.
I don’t think you can make any generalization about “the left” — there are angry idiots on both sides. This is the problem with exchanges in places like this - it’s descends into a “my team is better than your team” mentalitiy. Guess what? There are no absolutes - especially in politics. It’s all bullsh1t.
Dora - all that’s happening is McCain-Palin are desperate and trying to get undecided voters — it’s really more evidence of the ineptitude of Rick Davis and other idiots of the McCain campaign.
Apparently, McCain is coming to give another speech/rally in MN this week…He’s down 10 points - why waste time?
McCain must win in Ohio, Virginia, North Carolia, or Florida — if he loses any one of those, there’s no way he can win (even if he wins Colorado and New Mexico). He and Palin should focus on those states - if he picks up two or three of them, he’s got a shot at winning the whole thing…but given their lousy strategy over the past few months, don’t hold your breath.
“there are angry idiots on both sides.”
Apparently not, Sarge….per Dora/parthian.
NBC pulled this Saturday Night Live skit on the bailout because it wasn’t favorable to the democrats, but you can still see it here:
h**p://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/06/the-missing-snl-bailout-skit-and-the-soros-connection/
No SgtP that is not all that is happening. And it’s not just about “angry idiots”. What you and Jay are ignoring is that the Republican Presidential and VP candidates are deliberately and specifically whipping up a particularly vicious form of hatred at their campaign rallies. It’s not about parthian posting on a blog, it’s about repugnant tactics employed by the candidates themselves. You can see by McCain’s face when the person yells “terrorist” that he is taken aback but he ignored it. That is what their ads and rhetoric are stoking. Just like the right wing hate radio has stoked the same kind of hatred for 20 years. It’s an extension of Limbaugh, Malkin, Coulter, et al talking about violence against Democrats, Judges, liberals, etc. And now Republican candidates are inciting it. Being desperate for votes does not excuse that kind of sickening campaign tactic. It is beyond the pale and ignoring it or excusing it or rationalizing it just doesn’t cut it.
I think McCain should come out swinging tonight, maybe start off with a joke like:
What do Barak Obama and Osama Bin Laden have in common?
They both have friends who bombed the Pentagon.
It’s true Dora, Obama’s close friend Bill Ayers bombed the Pentagon, is unrepentent about it, and wishes he would have done more harm. Obama seems to surround himself with radicals.
“Obama’s close friend”, when you start out with a lie like that then the rest of what you say is dismissed DTSI-bot.
On the other hand, McCain did call G. Gordon Liddy an “old friend” and said “I’m proud of you, I’m proud of your family”. You remember Liddy, he’s the one that acknowledged he plotted to kill a newspaper columnist, he proposed kidnapping anti-war protesters so they wouldn’t disrupt the 1972 Republican convention, he’s a convicted felon for his role in the Watergate attempt to subvert the constitution, and on his radio show he advocated killing federal agents.
“D2, that video you posted has been removed. Just so you know.”
Damn liberals….
Here is the next best thing, a transcript with pictures.
h**p://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/07/the-forbidden-skit-full-transcript-and-screenshots-of-snls-sorossandler-bailout-satire/
The Barney Frank impersonation was hillarious though on the video. Too bad NBC thought it made the libs look bad and yanked it.
Dora,
Which are you disputing? That Bill Ayers is a terrorist, or that Barack Obama is a close friend of his. Anybody who does a little research will find that both are true.
There is no evidence that Ayers IS a terrorist. Did he commit acts of terrorism? Yes, 40 years ago. Obama IS NOT a “close friend” of Ayers.
Dora, I think the difference between you and me is that I no longer have the energy to get p1ssed off about the slimy tactics used by politicians when they’re losing.
We can sit here and bemoan all the terrible things McCain-Palin are doing…but what if John Kerry had gone slimeball in 2004, and he had won because of it? While you still may not approve, you might be able to live with it a litte more than what’s going on now.
Regardless — the evidence suggests that it’s not working. Too little, too late. McCain needed a home run tonight to change the momentum of the race - that didn’t happen. In fact, I think McCain looked angry and petty, and Obama looked collected and thoughtful.
not slimy, reprehensible. What is the point of your what if? It has no relevance to the kind of hate mongering that McCain/Palin are doing.
“There is no evidence that Ayers IS a terrorist.”
Dora,
Doesn’t bombing the Pentagon and other U.S. interests, not regretting it, and wishing you would have done more damage make you terrorists? Bill Ayers is indeed a terrorist, and Barack Hussein Obama has had a very close relationship with Ayers over the years, and even launched his political career in his home.
Dora wrote:
“assuming your claims above are accurate” Haven’t you seen the news Les? ”
Actually, No I havent seen that in the news, as I was out of town for an extended weekend, But I see even giving you the benefit of the doubt is a waste of time.
Dora, my point is that our political preferences shape our perceptions of reality — and that you may tolerate that kind of talk more if Kerry would have done something like that. Jimmy Doolittle was a hero in WWII - but if we’d have lost, he would have been tried and executed as a war criminal.
D2, I’ve worked with people and even been in their homes, but that doesn’t mean I have a “close” relationship with them. Politicians have small meetings like that in people’s homes when they’re first starting out.
The RNC dumped everything it had an Ayers on its website — there’s nothing new there that wasn’t brought up during the primaries. It’s a non-issue that voters don’t care about. Find something else to complain about.
Not Jimmy Doolittle — I actually meant to say General Curtis LeMay (since he organized the fire bombings of Tokyo)…
“giving you the benefit of the doubt is a waste of time.” You betcha it’s a waste of time. Especially since the benefit of the doubt is given when something can’t be verified. Do some basic checking before making a comment and you won’t embarrass yourself with you lack of knowledge.
DTSI-bot, you’ve become irrelevant.
SgtP, your theoretical is a strawman. This isn’t about what if Kerry or anybody else had done the same thing. No Democratic candidate has ever taken the hate mongering to the level that McCain/Palin have. There is absolutely no excuse for it. It should be loudly condemned not rationalized with what if’s. It is not acceptable. It is never acceptable. The door should be slammed on that kind of campaigning for good.
It’s especially irresponsible of the loathsome Repubs to run the worst hatemongering campaign ever against the first black candidate.
This is a major transitional point for our country as it becomes ever more racially pluralist, and the always responsible “conservatives”, once they fall behind on the issues, go straight for inciting rage against the hated “other”, and instead of trying to restrain the worst impulses of their authoritarian race-conscious base, intentionally inflame them. Very responsible.
Oh, but Country First, right McShame? Despicable.
And acting like “this is the way it always happens” simply minimizes this vile and irresponsible behavior.
Wow.
Dora is reaching now.
You must have missed the anarchy at the St Paul convention. McCain, not that I am for him, even had his acceptance speech interrupted. Nice tolerance there.
Broken windows/cars at macy’s. Guess it’s worse in Dora’s world to imagine mean speech, then see actual violence intimidating delegates doing their work.
Lastly, why should Dems get mean, 95% of the news media do it for them–from Rathergate to keith “i’m a lunatic” Olbermann. People reguarly get dubbed “worst person of the world.” How sweet.
Even now, Palin gets 10 minutes of insults on SNL. Pelosi and Barney share two minutes of abuse and it’s so unlib, NBC pulls that SNL video of that one off its website.
ie Lynne Sherrer rips palin for doing nothing for women. I mean, the examples are endless, so
Again, as with parth, why argue with childlike thinking. The most intolerant people I’ve ever seen to simply expressing one’s beliefs reside on the left.
P.S.
And BTW, I know Hil supporters who went to local Dem caucauses this spring, they said that was scary and intimidating to the nth degree. The Obama supporters werent, shall we say, sweeties.
Oh, and who wants to bet when the StarTrib intends to pull the plug on BQ—before or after the election?
Economic meltdown, historic bailouts, presidential election, multiple debates, a unqualified theocratic VP candidate, and we have two lame subjects in three weeks.
Leave it to the always discriminating 6DJ to equate political mockery on SNL with cries of “Obama’s a terrorist!” and “kill him” at McCain/Plain rallies—where the candidate themselves are (intentionally) inciting the rage!
As always, a non-functioning mind.
Have you ever seen SNL in the past, say, 35 years, 6DJ? Keep on laughing, laughman!
6DJ - In fairness, they’re talking about the GOP candidates. You’re talking about some anarchist punks who aren’t even affiliated with any party. No parity.
You’re right parth - I guess the 4 or 5 of us who regularly post aren’t generating enough hits to justify the cost. BQ is actually a really good example of jumping on the “blog” bandwagon — BQ is a discussion forum, not a blog.
Dora: “No Democratic candidate has ever taken the hate mongering to the level that McCain/Palin have.”
I assume profanity-laced, verbal attacks and physical aggression toward a college kid along a campaign stop do not qualify, in your estimation?
Jay - the issue here is that Palin, a VP candidate, is essentially calling Obama a terrorist. You’re talking about Al Franken getting in that kid’s face. Stupid move, but the difference is Franken lost his cool. Palin’s attach on Obama is calculated and part of a strategy.
I’m not 100% with Dora on this one, but she’s right that it is pretty unprecedented. I just see it as a natural progression — 20 years ago, Dukakis didn’t respond to Bush calling him a “liberal” because it was considered so low, he didn’t want to “dignify” it with a response. Wow have times changed. Now those kinds of attacks are completely normal.
“Palin, a VP candidate, is essentially calling Obama a terrorist”
The “news stories” that Dora quoted did not say that, Sarge. The stories said that some supporters started shouting comments to that effect. And that the “terrorist” comment was made by a rally attendee as well, actually interrupting McCain’s speech.
…..probably the same bonehead that showed up at the bar later that night and could be heard shouting “play some Skynyrd” from the back of the room as the band was trying to get through their set.
Anyway, Dora started out with the claim that the “angry left” somehow doesn’t exist, which, like you, I am able to see is still very much alive and well. She told me to come up with an example, so I did. Parse away.
Like I said, this election can not get over with fast enough for me. Both candidates know that there are no votes up for grabs to either of them, among those who typically vote. Are some black voters going to vote for Obama just because he’s black? Yes. Will some women vote for McCain just because he has a female runningmate? Yes. Will a bunch of rednecks who have never voted before show up to vote for McCain to try and prevent Obama from winning? Certainly. Will some people vote for Obama because he is young and good-looking? Yes. Will some vote for McCain because Palin is hot? You bet. Will some vote for McCain just because he was a POW? Yes. Will others vote for Obama just because they hate the military policy of GWB? Sure.
There is not one reason that I have listed off that is a suitable reason to base your vote on, but we all know there will be millions who do. The good news is that whoever wins, they will be the best candidate we have had to pick from in the last 8 years. I will vote for McCain for the third consecutive time, but I will do so knowing that if Obama wins, he is still a much better candidate for President than Bush, Kerry or Gore (or Hillary).
The campaign tactics of both are pretty shameless……but at the end of the day, that really isn’t any better of a reason upon which to decide a vote than the laundry list I rattled off earlier.
Especially since the benefit of the doubt is given when something can’t be verified..
Right, a person cant extend the benefit of the doubt to someone merely because they choose to rather than call them on thier statement….
Rest assured anything she post will be considers the biased garbage she usually posts.
The fact that her argument against the right is the poster child for a strawman seems to be beyond her comprehension.
to wit:
“The supporters of the right said bad and terrible things about the left, therefore the statement that the left is angry is untrue”
The fact that this logic is pure BS requires no research at all.
SgtPendleton says:
October 8th, 2008 at 10:07 am
6DJ - In fairness, they’re talking about the GOP candidates. You’re talking about some anarchist punks who aren’t even affiliated with any party. No parity.
Parity?
Dora and parth feign childlike outrage at business as usual:
The candidates didnt say those things, it was allegedly crowd members. Of course, we may or may not get reports of what the crowds say at Obama/biden rallies: “Bush lied/People died” is likely tame. Riiight, that’s not at all inflammatory.
Please dont be a weenie like Parth and Dora:
1. You have NO earthly idea of party (or is it PARTHY) affiliation of the punks were destroying property. Yet, DFL’ers have held official meetings on the police “excessive response.” Seen any Repubs hosting those meetings?
Also, what party affiliation hacked palin’s email account? Connect some dots there……
2. Even today, Obama’s followers, elected officials, no less, are calling Palin a racist, as posted on drudge.
Not inflammatory there, riiiight….
Jay is right, it cant end fast enough.
And the “winner” inherits a mess of epic proportions. I say give the Dems another two years; Dow 5,000 is doable at this rate.
“Dow 5,000 is doable at this rate.”
I sure hope so…..I’m only 33, so I needed the opportunity to buy in on the cheap at some point soon here….
Ha-ha, Repubs like 6DJ usually don’t think there is “excessive response” by police until one of their kids is arrested, then they get quite outraged.
Injustice always has to happen to a “conservative” personally before they ever care. Model citizens.
Because tax increases on the wealthy are an absolutely essential component of turning the federal budget (and economy) around, and because all Repubs oppose ANY tax increases till their dying breath, a Dem victory in Nov will begin the very long process of economic recovery from the absurd and reckless lunatic fiscal policies of “conservatives”.
It’ll be a long row to hoe, with the “party first” Repubs doing everything they can to wreck and block any progress on cleaning up their filthy 8 year mess, but the smashing of the conservative Repubs is the nation’s only hope, and just the necessary first step to the markets recovering at some time in the future.
so what changed your mind, parthian? For two years, you’ve been making the claim that the US will never be able to recover, and it was “all over.” Irreversible. Done. Period.
It’s all the conservative outrage that they dared to arrest Petters that changed his mind.
Whoops….their isnt any. Guess he’s just blathering again.
6DJ, RE Palin’s statement, “Obama pals around with terrorists.” — is essentially saying he is a terrorist (guilt by association).
The issue here is that I’m attributing Palin’s statement to the GOP, which is reasonable since she is their candidate. Deduction:
Palin is the GOP VP candidate. (A = B)
The VP candidate speaks for the GOP ticket. (B = C)
The ticket reprsents the official platform of the GOP. (C = D)
Palin speaks for the GOP…
or (A = B = C = D)
Your logic is inductive, as follows:
Violent punks are RNC vandals. (A = B)
DFLers are advocates for treatment of violent punks. (C = D)
Violent punks are DFLers.
Cannot conclude that A = C given this information.
question for you, Sarge…..does Joe Biden speak for the Democratic party when he says that marriage should be only between a man and a woman?
….or if you prefer, does John McCain speak for the GOP when he states that global warming is caused by greenhouse gasses created by humans?
and if Obama is a known associate of a “terrorist” (I don’t like using that term, even for Ayers), that is a much more factual (although misleading) statement than the parallel that the left immediately attempted to draw with Palin and the AIP. Pretending that the monkey sh1t fight doesn’t extend to both sides of this campaign is a claim that only people as politically narrow-minded as Dora/parthian could possibly attempt to make.
Keep spreading that self-righteousness around though, Dora. It makes for good entertainment.
Obama is an “associate of a terrorist” because he served on the same board and lived in the same neighborhood. Palin’s husband was a member of secessionist party AIP, she attended at least one, possibly two conventions, and she recorded a VT message for the convention as Governor in which she praised them and told them to keep up the good work and she is married to the man. Whose association is closer?
From Time.com: “This morning John McCain put out a list of 100 former ambassadors who are supporting his campaign. Number two is Leonore Annenberg, the wife of Ambassador William Annenberg, the founder of the Annenberg Institute of Reform, which funded the Annenberg Challenge, which once had two famous board members: former “domestic terrorist” William Ayers and Sen. Barack Obama.
So either we should all be outraged that John McCain is supported by a family who funded a foundation that hired a domestic terrorist, or this whole William Ayers thing is just plain silly.”
“Palin’s husband was a member of secessionist party AIP, she attended at least one, possibly two conventions, and she recorded a VT message for the convention as Governor in which she praised them and told them to keep up the good work and she is married to the man.”
The most accurate thing you said was “she is married to the man.”
He was not a member, he attended one convention. “Possibly two” is cute and all, but that’s no more or less accurate than saying he “possibly” attended all of them that have ever been held. He didn’t. He went to one. I’ve been to a lot of things once, before deciding whether to go again or not. She put together a VT due to the other things of value that they did to promote the state, not as a congratulatory piece in their (largely abandoned for the last few decades) support for the notion of succession.
You are being ridiculous…..while at the same time attempting to criticize others for doing the same. I cannot begin to quantify your level of hipocracy.
Dora asks: “Whose association is closer?”
Let’s see…..since Dora apparently wants to gauge degrees of association for each candidate:
Dora on Obama: “Obama is an “associate of a terrorist” because he served on the same board and lived in the same neighborhood.”
Dora on McCain: “This morning John McCain put out a list of 100 former ambassadors who are supporting his campaign. Number two is Leonore Annenberg, the wife of Ambassador William Annenberg, the founder of the Annenberg Institute of Reform, which funded the Annenberg Challenge, which once had two famous board members: former “domestic terrorist” William Ayers and Sen. Barack Obama.”
Based on the info you’ve given us here Dora, it appears as though Obama’s association is the closer of the two. Why do you ask?
jay, you’re just ignorant on the Palin/AIP situation. First Dude was an ACTUAL member for many years—that’s not disputed, BTW. Google, get up to speed.
Palin herself attended two conventions (based on the actual evidence) and has explicitly supported the AIP her entire political career in Alaska—not a surprise, it’s a right wing organization and she (and First Dude) are admitted right wingers. Duh.
So you don’t know what you’re talking about (again). And if you think being married to an actual member of the AIP and attending its conventions and (as Governor) endorsing it as an important Alaska organization is the same level of “connection” with a dubious organization as serving on a charitable board with an aging ex-Weatherman of 40 plus years ago, well, you’re simply not objective.
Dora, can you believe the level of denial and constipated “thinking” of these guys?
As I’ve said, “conservatism” is a real brain poisoner. How do they balance a check book? It’s a shame there’s no known antidote…..
“Google, get up to speed.”
Well….if it comes up on a Google search, then it must be true. I chose to just look at the site of the actual organization back when these allegation were first disprooven, so obviously its been a while….
As i recall, he showed up at a convention so he was declared to be a “member”…..in much the same way, I gather, in as much as I would be a member of the MN DFL if I chose to participate in the caucus. Its a bullsh1t allegation and we all are adult enough to see that, with two notable exceptions I guess.
I also noticed that the AIP in question hasn’t been pushing for succession since back in the 70’s. I don’t think any Democrat wants to turn back the clock that far to discuss personal conduct or decision making.
“…is the same level of “connection” with a dubious organization as serving on a charitable board with an aging ex-Weatherman of 40 plus years ago, well, you’re simply not objective.”
My post on comparisons to Ayer were in response to Dora’s contention that McCain is just as affiliated with him as Obama is. Learn to read.
The degree of affiliation of Obama to Ayer versus the degree of affiliation of Palin to AIP is also a waste of time, due to the fact that the association between Palin and AIP is entirely manufactured. i don’t give an ounce of merit to the Ayer-Obama thing either, but Dora asked which one was a closer relationship. Forced to choose between zero and insignificant, I guess I’m stuck picking the insignificant one.
Obama has many other disturbing relationships besides Bill Ayers, let’s not forget that.
Dora and Partisan,
h**p://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html
This will knock your socks off!
You “recall” wrong. Dozens of MSM sites report that First Dude was registered with the Alaska Department of Elections as a member of the Alaska Independence Party from 1995 until July 2002, when he changed his registration to “undeclared”. His affiliation wasn’t based on “showing up at conventions”—his wife did that as well, yet never became a registered member.
So you are completely and utterly wrong again, jay.
Palin is a right wing Alaskan who is married to someone who is very likely an Alaskan secessonist. She has attended that secessionist organization’s main convention at least twice and has spoken approvingly of the party and its goals and addressed it as governor via video.
If you want to goofily maintain that means her relationship to AIP is “zero” or “entirely manufactured”, it doesn’t surprise me in the least, and one can simply hope you are never picked to be on a jury or have to evaluate evidence for anything more important that which TV dinner or toilet bowl cleaner you’re going to buy.
But of course the “goal” of your argument is always to “equate” the actions and circumstances of the opposing candidates, that’s your mantra…….
Jay — RE: Biden — I believe the Democrat’s position is that they’re against an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. This demonstrates something that conservatives will never understand about the Democrats - often times, their positions are nuanced, or even ambiguous. Accepting ambiguity is something the GOP has historically sucked at…one of the reasons why the Dems are more appealing to me now.
The most generous thing I can say for Sarah Palin is that she’s a great fit for Governor of Alaska.
D2, that link you provided is a great example of why people who don’t understand the financial crisis should not talk about it.
“He was not a member, he attended one convention” Yes he was a member from 1996-2006. He doesn’t dispute it. The records from the organization provided to the press support it. But Jay, thinks it’s a “bullsh1t allegation”. Caught in your bluster proving once again you really are ignorant about the things you post on. The Google is your friend Jay.
Yep Parthian, deep denial.
DTSI-bot, your tinfoil hat must be pinching again.
You’re right parthian, I had the dates wrong.
Fox News’ political reporter Carl Cameron is on the trail with John McCain. Reporting from a live McCain rally this evening, he said:
You’ll hear the booing behind me. In recent days, when Barack Obama’s name has been mentioned, it has gone from boos and hissing to actual chants and calls of traitor, criminal, and even terrorist.
The McCain campaign says they don’t condone it, they don’t want to see it happen, but it’s happening more and more every day.
What do they expect when they are the ones who are whipping up the mob frenzy. Yet Jay and 6DJ want to pretend this is no big deal.
“You’re right Partisan, I had the dates wrong.”
You have just about everying wrong Dora!
OMG, do you need a hanky to cry into Dora. It’s so very awful.
Have you heard the mantra:
“Bush lied. People died”
That lying, disrespectful, almost evil phrase, became a campaign slogan. And bumper stickers. And signs.
Of course, the left simply thinks it’s the truth, so that BS is OK for Dora.
I find it the worst example of politico
smearing in my lifetime. To each, their own. Boo hoo for all of us.
Dora, it’s just the way it is.
Feign you outrage, but please, take your kindergarten logic to some other site.
Whether its Bernhardt threatening gangrape on Palin, Cybil calling McCain/Palin the American catastrophe, or any of Bill Maher’s vulgar filled rants against W, religion, or the right,
or how about Whoopi’s Dem (ie official party function!) fundraiser (the “bush” jokes) in 2004 that was so bad they hid the video,
God, why do I argue with children….
Imagine people expressing their opinions, it’s so AWFULLLLLLLL.
And as jay says, the left is so innocent.
Mob frenzy?
Did the St Paul stormtroopers move in to restore order? Where’s the Fox video.
St Paul, now there I saw mobs attacking Republicans. Was it worse than that?
Scary?
1/20/07–Dow 12,500
10/8/08–Dow 9,300
Now that’s scary.
I’ll join a mob if anyone wants to storm the House Dem offices.
Jim, sometimes I see flashes of an intelligent person in your posts, then you put up something like that…
But hey — Obama won the debate last night, and the market tanked. It’s his fault, right?
Scary?
1/20/07–Dow 12,500
10/8/08–Dow 9,300
Now that’s scary.
I’ll join a mob if anyone wants to storm the House Dem offices.
***************
Great point Jim! Things have been going so well since the democrats took control of BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS!
Imagine how great it would be if they controlled everything!
Thanks. ;o)
It’s hyperbole, Sarge:
And here is some more:
And who cant laugh at the “outrage,” stirred up on that
there campaign trail out thatta way……..
Gosh, it would be like a Kucinich out there stirring up the faithful
with his impeachment talk. IMPEACH this President.
Might even get an Ellison to cosponsor this movement.
That criminal, traitorous, lying President. C’mon citizens, get
that noose and join this lynch mob.
Fortunately, this would never happen in America, where the left
plays fair, and is always courteous. gangrape allegations aside.
and those al franken videos, m f ing this and that, totally faked.
That’s right, no Dem candidate would ever incite an audience.
Not in Dora’s America………
And how did Kucinich do, Dora?
If candidates cross the line of civility, they will be soundly rejected.
If McCain goes too far, he will also pay at the polls.
Save your outrage, voters will decide.
That’s the beauty of America.
Each one of us gets a vote. Even Parth and Blaine.
Well, actually there is a pretty strong legal argument for impeaching Cheney, but that’s beside the point.
You show what a brain dead buffoon you are with your rants 6DJ. And we wonder how people could sit by and do nothing in past history when their “leaders” whipped up hatred against others. We are witnessing it. People like 6DJ find excuses and make false equivalencies and ignore it. This is an ugly face to the Republican Party and to Palin and McCain specifically. Their “rallies” are turning into hate fests and bringing out the worst in people. They are despicable. They have crossed the line of civility and anybody who doesn’t soundly reject them for it will be enabling that kind of hate mongering. Take off your partisan blinders and look at what is right in front of your nose.
Alas, Dora whimpers away with a moronic comment. And that’s being kind to her.
Al Franken, real peach there, Dora….
Even the Lords and McCollums love that guy as your MN DFL face.
Any comments on Bush lied, people died as valid? The yahoo emails?
Hilary supporters feeling threatened at Dem caucauses?
Look, Sarge even supports the impeachment idea. Shock!
One person’s “hate” is another’s truth.
How about you just stopping your moron medicine? Its working way too well.
Trust me, it will get alot “uglier” in the weeks ahead. It’s American politics.
Lastly, I dont wonder why past “leaders” (who could this refer too?) had success in whipping up frenzies, when pablum brained people like Dora would follow blindly to the “their mean, but we’re not” mentality.
Vote for you m-f-ing sweetie, Al.
a real peach.
parthian:”You “recall” wrong. Dozens of MSM sites report that First Dude was registered with the Alaska Department of Elections as a member of the Alaska Independence Party from 1995 until July 2002, when he changed his registration to “undeclared”. His affiliation wasn’t based on “showing up at conventions”—
My post said that he showed up as a member in the AIP records as a result of his showing up at a convention. I never questioned the fact that his name was in the membership records, so your allegations are misleading again, which is par for you. I would challenge you to substantiate your claim that his membership was initiated by something more than showing up at that convention, as you claim. Take a little of your own advice and back up your claims.
While you are at it, go ahead and admit that the AIP hasn’t been pushing the secessionist agenda in over a generation….nearly as long as its been since the Democratic party supported segregation (less than 10 years difference there).
As far as “membership” in groups goes, dig into the membership records at St Joseph’s Catholic Church and it will show that I am a member…..but I only showed up a couple times and haven’t been at a mass there in several years. Records will show that I am a memeber though.
TO SARGE: I noticed you didn’t bother to respond to my question of McCain speaking for the GOP on the global warming issue…..
Truth 6DJ? So what those people are shouting at their rallies is truth? They aren’t “mean”, they are dangerous.
Dora, as for 6DJ, none are so blind as will not see.
The disgusting McCain operation has concluded that its only hope of “victory” is energizing long held dislike of minorities by American whites, hence this final “who is Barack Obama? He’s unpatriotic, hates the troops” gambit. This goes hand in glove with the Right wing blaming of the housing crisis and economic meltdown on minorities.
We always knew this was coming after Obama became the nominee, and that the monster that is the Repub party would certainly not go quietly, but would lash out as violently and viciously as it could in its final death throes.
We’ll just have to see if America can resist the call to race hatred that is the last gasp of this horrendous “conservative” movement.
parthian: “This goes hand in glove with the Right wing blaming of the housing crisis and economic meltdown on minorities.”
Actually, parthian, the radical right doesn’t blame that crisis on minorities. They blame it on the left and the perceived agenda of the left to get those minorities into homes, using questionable criteria, when they might otherwise not have had the financial means to do so.
I don’t know that I support that view, but that is their argument. If you choose to attack, please frame your attacks accurately.
Sorry Jay — actually I don’t know what the GOP platform is on global warming. Platforms are usually more centrist, so I’d assume that it’s probably closer to McCain’s view than Bush’s.
Parthian, you still haven’t answered why Obama hates America?
The GOP platform???? You post stated that because Palin made the comment that Obama pals around with a terrorist, that her comments reflect the GOP. Remember your A=B=C thing?
I’m left with no conclusion to draw except that either you believe a plank of the GOP platform deals specifically with Obama and his associates, or that just because someone on the GOP presidential ticket makes a commen, it is not necessarily reflective of the GOP party.
I think you and I can both agree that just because McCain/Palin says something at a rally, they do not necessarily speak for the GOP, as you suggest. The global warming thing illustrates that very clearly.
I notice Dora and parth wont comment on:
mf-ing AL, lord farris, email hacking by dems, Hil supporters being intimidated, impeachment yadayadayada,
At least dora has come back to earth with a simple comment.
Truth is Dora:
Bush lied people died =
obama as criminal or terrorist
for rude, stupid, and idiotic.
both are dopey, but it’s political season.
but both are offensive to their supporters.
1 month and it;s over. Yea.
Personally, I think both candidates stink so I wont lose sleep over who wins.
False equivalencies 6DJ. Either your too ignorant or too much in denial to understand.
Please leave a comment
You must be logged in to post a comment.
buy tamiflu; swine flu symptoms prevention Tamiflu Baxter "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Relenza Tamiflu Online tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line What Types Of Methods Of Prevention To The Spanish Flu tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Oculo And Tamiflu flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" Flu Vaccine For Parkinsons Treatment home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Great Swine Flu Epidemic relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Live Virus Flu Shoot tamiflu flu tamiflu dosage Tamiflu Antiviral Stockpiling Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Swine Flu California what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms headache Veternarian Tamiflu flu shoots companys Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. Depo Provera Flu Interfere buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Case Study Of Tamiflu tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu without a prescribtion Rumsfelds Growing Stake In Tamiflu Fort Detrick flu medication tamiflu swine flu protection Swine Flu Florida tamiflu adverse events molen flu shoots Tamiflu At Parvo cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Swine Flu School Closings tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Tamiflu And Parvo tylenol flu night time tamiflu and effectiveness and safety Tamiflu In Cairo Egypt tamiflu in dogs! tamiflu for only 4 days Does Tamiflu Work ingridients of tamiflu intestinal flu Dangers Of Tamiflu number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Swine Flu Australia wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Swine Flu Locations
tamiflu recalls swine flu virus; Tamiflu Manufacturer Gilliad tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu mask; Tamiflu Wikipedia panleukopenia and tamiflu rebate on tamiflu, Swine Flu Cartoons depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Stomach Flu Treatments Symptoms swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; Breastfeeding Tamiflu tamiflu nausea tamiflu invent Swin Flu Precations
prevention of flu
cautions pediatric use tamiflu! Treatment For Stomach Flu gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Tamiflu Ingredian prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche Prozac Withdrawal Flu Symptoms swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Flu Affecting Blood Tests flu prevention signs who invented tamiflu Flu Shot While On Prednisone rogaine flu symptoms pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu Swine Flu Prevention Postersflu shot and tylenol,
rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Swine Flu Symptoms And Treatments Swine Flu does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Flu Shoot Clinics Northwestern Pa aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Chimney Flu rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Veterinary Use Of Tamiflu buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? Tamiflu Brand "generic for tamiflu" swine flu incubation tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu medical Herbal Homeopathic Treatment For Swine Flu tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Tamiflu Is Dangerous Drug flu treatments without tylenol! philadelphia flu shoots Flu Shoot Clinics Erie Warren Pa home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Tamiflu And Swine Flu Immunity relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Flu Shot And Depakote tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Tamiflu Cdc Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Flu Vaccine And Ibuprofen what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms prilosec Tamiflu Related To Disasters flu shoots companys Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. Soap Note For Tamiflu buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Tamiflu Reaction tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu where can you buy online There Is No Treatment For Swine Flu flu medication tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments Tamiflu Roche Dick Cheney tamiflu adverse events molen flu shoots Swine Flu Maps cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Tamiflu Used Since tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Valtrex Flu tylenol flu night time tamiflu and effectiveness and safety Tamiflu Warnings tamiflu in dogs! tamiflu for only 4 days Flu Symptoms Prilosec ingridients of tamiflu intestinal flu Russian Tamiflu number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Treating Parvo With Tamiflu wiki tamiflu tamiflu otcTamiflu Pros Cons tamiflu recalls swine flu virus; Tamiflu And Rumsfeld tamiflu manufacturer gilliad
swine flu mask; What Can You Get For Treatments Of The Flu panleukopenia and tamiflu price of tamiflu Tamiflu Long Term Damage depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Is Tamiflu By Prescription Only swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu And Bird Flu tamiflu nausea tamiflu interfears with immune system How Long Will Tamiflu Last Storage prevention of flu chilli cold and flu treatment Rumsfelds Growing Stake In Tamiflu gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Rogaine Flu Symptoms prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche Tamiflu Indications swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Swine Flu Death flu prevention signs who invented tamiflu Are There Treatments For The Spanish Flu
rogaine flu symptoms
parvo with tamiflu Tamiflu For Children flu shot and tylenol, stock ticker who makes tamiflu Pharmacist Role In Flu Prevention Tamiflu does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Flu Medication Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Tamiflu Otc rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Achat Tamiflu buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? Over The Counter Tamiflu "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Children Tylenol Flutamiflu uk shop?
tamiflu medical Tamiflu Related To Pan Epidemic Outbreak tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Flu Shoots Baltimore flu treatments without tylenol! philadelphia flu shoots Tamiflu Generic home treatment of the flu tamiflu 60 mg Flu Shoots Copanys relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Shelf Life Of Tamiflu tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Tamiflu Pregnancy Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Does Tamiflu Contraindicate With Acetaminophen what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms headache Tylenol Flu Med flu shoots companys stopped tamiflu early Chaep Tamiflu Without Prescription buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Tamiflu Z-pack tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu without a prescribtion Parvo Tamiflu flu medication tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments Donald Rumsfeld Tamiflu tamiflu adverse events molen flu shoots 2009 Flu Season Update cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Tamiflu Flu tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Pandemic Flu Home Care Kits tylenol flu night timetamiflu and effectiveness and safety
Tylenol Flu Shot tamiflu in dogs!tamiflu drinking alcohol; Tramadol For Flu Symptoms ingridients of tamiflu how long does the flu last Alberta Coverage Tamiflu number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Lipitor And Flu Like Symptoms wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Can Pets Get The Swine Flu
tamiflu recalls swine flu virus; Swine Flu Veracruz tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu mask; Flu Mask P95 panleukopenia and tamiflu rebate on tamiflu, Tamiflu Disorientation Dizziness depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Swine Flu News swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu Dosage tamiflu nausea tamiflu interfears with immune system Flu Shot And Flagyl prevention of flu chilli cold and flu treatment Flu Shot gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Swine Flu Symptoms Treatment prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche Medication Tamiflu swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Swine Flu Symptoms And Treatments flu prevention signs who invented tamiflu Coumadin Flu Shot rogaine flu symptoms pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu
Babies Tamiflu
flu shot and tylenol, rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Tamiflu For Children 2008 does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Wki Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Bird Flu rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Order Tamiflu For Dogs buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? False Negative Girl Died Avian Tamiflu "generic for tamiflu" swine flu locations Treatment Protocol For Family Members With Flu tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line Flu Shoots Dallas tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Swine Flu Incubation Period flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" Reactions To Flu Shoots home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcoholTamiflu Length Of Storage
relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu flu Tamiflu For Acute Influenza A tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Treatment For The Flu Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Is Tamiflu A Vaccine what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms prilosec How Does Tamiflu flu shoots companys Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. Procter And Gamble Tamiflu For Staff buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu and supply chain Japanese Star Anise Tamiflu tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu without a prescribtion What Is Swine Flu flu medication tamiflu swine flu protection How Is The Swine Flu Transmitted tamiflu adverse events Medication tamiflu avian bird flu medicine tamiflu 964. Tamiflu Immune System cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Bestel Tamiflu tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Flu Shoots Companys tylenol flu night time tamiflu and effectiveness and safety Moin Flu Shootstamiflu in dogs!
tamiflu drinking alcohol; Tylenol Or Aspirn For Flu ingridients of tamiflu intestinal flu Buy Tamiflu Onlinenumber needed to treat for tamiflu is tamiflu over the counter Tamiflu And Purchase wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Flu Protection tamiflu recalls tamiflu Swine Flu Mexico tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu mask; Lemon Cold And Flu Treatment panleukopenia and tamiflu rebate on tamiflu, Reactions To Tamiflu depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Lipitor Flu Like Symptoms swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; New Swine Flu Cases tamiflu nausea tamiflu interfears with immune system Swine Flu Origin prevention of flu
chilli cold and flu treatment
No Rx Tamiflu gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflutamiflu abnormal behaviour description!
Swine Flu Information prophylactic tamiflutamiflu producer
Tamiflu Cheap Without Prescriptionswine flu death toll
tamiflu parov canine Molen Flu Shoots flu prevention signs Why is it called swine flu wiki tamiflu 309. Swine Flu Map reactions to tamiflu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu Tamiflu Scam flu shot and tylenol, stock ticker who makes tamiflu Flu Treatments does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Comprar Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Tamiflu Singapore Stockpile rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Tamiflu Coupon buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? Tamiflu Rumsfield "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Topamax And Flu Like Symptoms tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line Treatment For Swine Flu tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Wirksamkeit Tamiflu flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" Why Is It Called Swine Flu home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Stomach Flu Asprin Tylenol relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Swine Flu Prevention tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Tamiflu Ingredients Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Cold Vs Flu Symptoms what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms headache Cancun Swine Flu flu shoots companys stopped tamiflu early Triphala Cold Flu buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Alternative Treatment For Bird Flu tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu without a prescribtion Tamiflu Cardiac Problems flu medication tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments Swine Flu Cases tamiflu adverse events molen flu shoots Treatments For Flu cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Flu Vaccine Treatment For Multiple Sclerosis tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Alberta Prescription Tamiflu tylenol flu night time tamiflu and effectiveness and safety Symptoms Of The Swine Flu tamiflu in dogs! tamiflu for only 4 days Buy Tamiflu Obtain Your Prescription Onlineingridients of tamiflu how long does the flu last Prevention Of Flu number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Swine Flu Hoax wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Cdc Swine Flu tamiflu recalls tamiflu Baxter Avian Flu Vaccine Europe tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu mask; Receive Flu Shoot Alabaster Al panleukopenia and tamiflu rebate on tamiflu,
Swine Flu Alternative Treatments Health depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and children, Tamiflu Oral Suspension Expiration swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; Canada Pharmacy No Prescription Required For Tamiflu tamiflu nausea tamiflu invent Medwatch Form For Tamiflu prevention of flu chilli cold and flu treatment Swine Flu 2009 gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Tamiflu Otc Switch prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche Generic Version Of Tamiflu swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Does Tamiflu Interfer With Immune System flu prevention signs who invented tamiflu Tamiflu Without A Prescribtion rogaine flu symptoms pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu Ibuprofen After Flu flu shot and tylenol, stock ticker who makes tamiflu Claritin Flu does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Flu Symptoms Fever aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Tamiflu New Zealand rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Tamiflu Maker buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? Flu Shoot Maryland Location "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Child Didnt Finish All Tamiflu tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line Prednisone And Flu Shots tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Swine Flu Deaths flu treatments without tylenol! philadelphia flu shoots Tamiflu Fierce home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Flu Like Symptons With Lexapro 20mg relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Can Nursing Homes Dispense Tamiflu tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions What Are Flu Symptoms Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Flu And Prednisone what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms prilosec Problems With Tamiflu flu shoots companys Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. Tamiflu Mercury buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Swine Flu Mexico Tamiflu tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu where can you buy online Swine Flu And Tamiflu flu medication tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments Albertsons Central Forida Flu Shoots tamiflu adverse events Medication tamiflu avian bird flu medicine tamiflu 964. Swine Flu Texas cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Best Flu Treatments tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Swine Flu H1n1 tylenol flu night time "tamiflu and dangers" Tamiflu Swf tamiflu in dogs! tamiflu for only 4 days Map Of Swine Flu ingridients of tamiflu intestinal flu Tamiflu Stock number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Cdc Swine Flu Treatment wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Occulo Tamiflu 60 Mg tamiflu recalls tamiflu Flu Tracker
tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu in texas Avian Flu And Tamiflu panleukopenia and tamiflu rebate on tamiflu, History Physical Template For Tamiflu depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Bird Flu Tamiflu swine flu conspiracy aids tamiflu flu; Where To Buy Allison-c For Bird Flu Prevention tamiflu nausea tamiflu invent Tamiflu 75 Mg Bulk Purchase Online prevention of flu chilli cold and flu treatment How Can I Buy Tamiflu gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Pig Flu prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche Rebate On Tamiflu swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Most Effective Antiviral For The Flu flu prevention signs Why is it called swine flu wiki tamiflu 309. H1n1 Flu Pandemic reactions to tamiflu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu The Swine Flu flu shot and tylenol, stock ticker who makes tamiflu Tamiflu Online Purchase does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Wiki Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Tamiflu Rumsfeld rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick
panleukopenia and tamiflu Swine Flu Canada buy tamiflu; swine flu symptoms prevention Depo Provera Flu Shot "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Medication Tamiflu Avian Bird Flu tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line When To Take Tamiflu tamiflu stomach flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. Treatment Of Swine Flu flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" Where Can You Buy Tamiflu home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Government Purchase Of Tamiflu relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Shoud Businesses Stockpile Tamiflu tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Teens Abusing Tamiflu Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. acheter tamiflu Drug Interactions Tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu flu symptoms prilosec H1n1 Flu Symptoms And Treatment flu shoots companys Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. Tamiflu Nausea buy tamiflu without a prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; Buy Tamiflu tamiflu suspension no prescription tamiflu where can you buy online Avian Bird Flu Tamiflu flu medication tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments Swine Flu Vaccine tamiflu adverse events molen flu shoots Who Owns Tamiflu cdc + swine flu treatment swine flu in ohio Flu Tamiflu Powder tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; tamiflu shelf life Flu Shoots Az tylenol flu night time tamiflu and effectiveness and safety Kop Tamiflu tamiflu in dogs! tamiflu for only 4 days Roche Tamiflu ingridients of tamiflu intestinal flu What Is The Scientific Name For The Swine Flu number needed to treat for tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" Diovan And Flu Like Symptoms wiki tamiflu tamiflu otc Tamiflu Cod tamiflu recalls tamiflu Tamiflu Hemorrhoid tamiflu manufacturer gilliad swine flu mask; Swine Flu Mask
panleukopenia and tamiflu prozac withdrawal symptoms flu; Ibuprofen And Flu Shots depo provera flu interfere! tamiflu and seizure Is Tamiflu An Anitbiotic swine flu conspiracy "12 mg tamiflu" Swine Flu Incubation tamiflu nausea tamiflu invent Cautions Pediatric Use Tamiflu prevention of flu chilli cold and flu treatment Swine Flu Italy gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu tamiflu and parvo Purchase Of Tamiflu prophylactic tamiflu tamiflu roche China Has Done Tamiflu To Death swine flu death toll tamiflu roche dick cheney? Swine Flu And Symptoms flu prevention signs who invented tamiflu Tamiflu Children rogaine flu symptoms pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu Flu Shoot flu shot and tylenol, stock ticker who makes tamiflu H1n1 Flu Treatment does tamiflu work influenza a tamiflu Tamiflu Resistance In Avian Flu aids tamiflu flu; 2009 flu multnomah county oregon Tamiflu Uk Shop rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick pediatric tamiflu Flu Symptoms Muscle Aches buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? Tylenol Cold And Flu Severe "generic for tamiflu" swine flu masks? Swine Flu Humor tamiflu uk shop? tamiflu on line Tamiflu Cheney tamiflu stomach flu tucson flu shoots Swine Flu Prevention Video flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" Roche Relenza Tamiflu home treatment of the flu tamiflu alcohol Stock Ticker Who Makes Tamiflu relenza vs tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid Tamiflu How It Works tamiflu flu tamiflu dosing instructions Tamiflu Avian Flu Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642.
what are some treatments of swine flu
Tamiflu Injections flu symptoms prilosec flu prevention pamphlet Flu Treatment For PediatricsSwine flu swine flu 1976 147.
bird flu tamiflu Flu Shoot Clinics Jamestown New York tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Treatment For Equine Flu tamiflu without a prescribtionflu medication tamiflu
Who Manufactures Tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments symptoms of the swine flu Cold And Flu Prevention And Treatment molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Symtoms Of Swine Flu swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Cold And Flu Remedy tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Tamiflu Off The Shelf tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu how it works What Are The Symptoms Of Swine Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu At This Time What Is The Best Treatment For Swine Flu intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Actos Flu Symptoms None S Objection "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Tamiflu Pharmaceutical tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Phenergan For Flu tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Tamiflu Is Made From swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Intestinal Flu rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Flu Symtoms tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy California Flu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Ordering Tamiflu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Mexico Swine Flu chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Swine Flu San Antonio tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu H1n1 Deaths Were They On Tamiflu tamiflu roche swine flu cartoons Who Invented Tamiflu tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Swine Flu Natural Treatments who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Tamiflu Revlu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Tamiflu And Breastfeeding stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Swine Flu Symptoms influenza a tamiflu acme philadelphia flu shoots acme Buy Tamiflu No Perscription 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Tamiflu And Effectiveness And Safety pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Roche And Employer Stockpiling Tamiflu swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Swine Flu Treatments swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Stopped Tamiflu Early tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Treatment For Flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Alternative Flu Prevention "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Survived H1n1 Without Tamiflu tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Does Tamiflu Fight Avian Flu tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Role Of Np Flu Tamiflu tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Tamiflu Cystic Fibrosis acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine fluFlu Map
flu symptoms prilosec flu prevention pamphlet Order Tamiflu No PrescriptionSwine flu swine flu 1976 147.
bird flu tamiflu Tamiflu Brain Virus tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Taking Tamiflu As A Precaution tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tamiflu Adverse Reactions Recent News swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Thermisol In Tamiflu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Flu Pandemic Declared swine flu in ohio tamiflu flu Swine Flu Treatment tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Counterfeit Tamiflu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Avian Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Tamiflu Roche intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Rumsfeld Tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Tamiflu And Avian Flu tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Use In Avian Flu tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Flu Shoot Radition Treatment swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Tamiflu Effective rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Tamiflu And Pregnancy tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tamiflu Medicene aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Number Needed To Treat For Tamiflu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Tamiflu Resistance chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Search Results Tamiflu tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Flu Season tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Flu Portland Or tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Tamiflu Danger who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Tamiflu For Swine pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Food Poisoning Vs Flu stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work California Swine Flu influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu;Ibuprofen And Flu Vaccine 2009 flu multnomah county oregon remedy for stomach flu The Spanish Flu pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Flu Headache Aleve swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Does President Obama Have Stock In Tamiflu swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Duration Of Flu Symptoms tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Swine Flu Protection Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718.
flu treatments without tylenol!
H1n1 Swine Flu "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" h1n1 flu symptoms Tamiflu Parov Canine tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Homeopathic Treatments For Stomach Flu tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Tamiflu Manufacturer tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Whats In Tamiflu acheter tamiflu weaponized swine flu; Buy Tamiflu W No Prescription flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Swine Flu Facts Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Chilli Cold And Flu Treatment tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Tamiflu Invent tamiflu without a prescribtion flu masks Tamiflu Oseltamivir Phosphate swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Flu Strain In Idaho molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Flu Remedies swine flu in ohio tamiflu flu Flu Prednisone Shot tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Flu Treatment For Children tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Cheapest Tamiflu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Swine Flu Statistics intestinal flunumber needed to treat for tamiflu
Singulair Flu Shot "medwatch form for tamiflu" what if i don't finish tamiflu Natural And Alternative Bird Flu Treatments tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Treatment For The Avian Flu tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Stomach Flu Symptoms swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Over The Counter Flu Prevention rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Buy Tamiflu Without Prescription tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tamiflu Canine Parvovirus aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Swine Flu In Texas tamiflu invent prevention of flu Latest Reports On Swine Flu chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Flu Prevention tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Government Tamiflu tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Got Better H1n1 Without Tamiflu tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Avian Flu Treatment who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Philadelphia Flu Shoots pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Star Anise In Tamiflu stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work North Carolina Swine Flu influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Flu Symptoms 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Bird Flu Pandemic pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Swine Flu Course Progression Duration Treatment Tamiflu swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Order Tamiflu swine flu masks? tamiflu suspension Tamiflu Dose For Influenza tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Swine Flu Test Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Swine Flu In Cancun "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Health Care Flu Shoot tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamifluSwine Flu Prevention Kits
tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu dosing instructions Swine Flu Death Toll tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Tamiflu Or Relenza acheter tamiflu weaponized swine flu; Tamiflu Dangers flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companysTamiflu Sale
Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. bird flu tamiflu Tamiflu Suspension No Prescription tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Flu Shoots Pittsburgh Pa tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tamiflu American Pediatric Association swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Acheter Tamiflu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tamiflu Sign Guidlines swine flu in ohio tamiflu flu Flu Vaccine Tylenol tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Hiv Flu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu how it works Influenza A Tamiflu tamiflu for only 4 days ibuprofen for children after flu Tamiflu Contains Mercury intestinal flunumber needed to treat for tamiflu
Flu "medwatch form for tamiflu" "when to take tamiflu" Tamiflu Bestellen tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Counterfeit Tamiflu Avian Bird Flu tamiflu tamiflu mexico; Tylenol Severe Fluswine flu in mexico!
ontario tamiflu & immunosuppressed patients? Online Tamiflu rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Tamiflu Banned Japan tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tamiflu And To Relenza. aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu medical San Luis Potosi Swine Flu tamiflu invent prevention of flu How Long Does The Flu Last chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Tylenol Flu Pregnant tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Herbal Tamiflu Recipe tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Tamiflu Safety Elderly tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Swine Flu Tamiflu who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Mexico Flu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Tamiflu During Pregnancy stock ticker who makes tamiflu does president obama have stock in tamiflu Gilead Tamiflu Stocks Value influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu Interfears With Immune System2009 flu multnomah county oregon remedy for stomach flu Swine Flu Masks pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu Wonkette
swine flu wisconsin?
flu vaccine! Tamiflu Orders No Prescription swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Tamiflu Order Without A Prescription tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Que Es El Tamiflu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu tracker How Fast Does Tamiflu Work "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Flu Shot While Taking Prednisone tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Oculo Tamiflu 60 Mg tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Flu Shot Side Effects tamiflu dosing instructions star anise in tamiflu Tamiflu Black Box acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Remedy For Stomach Flu flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Flu Vaccine And Coumadin Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Bactrim And Tamiflu Together tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Buy Tamiflu Without A Prescription tamiflu without a prescribtionflu masks
Tamiflu Donald Rumsfield swine flu symptoms and treatments symptoms of the swine flu Pravachol Nexium Actos Phentermine Tamiflu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Drug Trials For Tamiflu swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Canine Tamiflu tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Pediatric Tamiflu Approved For Pandemic Purchase tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Tamiflu Suspension tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu What Are The Ingredients intestinal flunumber needed to treat for tamiflu
Tamiflu Adverse Events "medwatch form for tamiflu" "when to take tamiflu" Tamiflu By Vbulletin tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Drug Treatment For Swine Flu tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Buy No Online Prescription Tamiflu swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Motrin Cold And Flu rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere!Safeway Flu Shoots
tamiflu and seizure
still died after taking tamiflu Veterinary Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Cold And Flu Prevention tamiflu invent prevention of flu Tamiflu Abnormal Suicidal Behaviour chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Bird Flu Treatment tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Tamiflu Without A Prescription tamiflu roche swine flu cartoons Purchase Tamiflu tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Coumadin And Flu Shot who invented tamiflurogaine flu symptoms
Stomach Flu And Treatments pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shoot clinics northwestern pa Tamiflu In Vaccine stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu Where Can You Buy Online influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu Capsules 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Swine Flu 1976 pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Cold Flu Motrin swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Dosing Tamiflu swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Swine Flu Symptoms Prevention tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Swine Flu Symptons Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Tamiflu Singapore Tender "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Swine Flu Syptoms And Treatments tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Tamiflu And Seizure tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Flu Prevention Salt tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Tamiflu Recalls acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu What Is The Swine Flu flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys The Truth About Swine Flu Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Nose Bleeds And Tamiflu tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription False Flu Security tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tamiflu Relenza swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Tamiflu Histori molen flu shoots canine tamiflu Prozac Withdrawal Symptoms Flu swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Anthony Fauci Tamiflu tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Tamiflu Purchase tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Treatment Swine Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Swine Flu Symptom intestinal flu no rx tamiflu Avian Bird Flu And Tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Swine Flu Treatment Recommendations tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls The Flu tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Tamiflu Prescribing Directions For Swine Flu swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Tamiflu Generic Name rebate on tamiflu, depo flu provera symptom Tamiflu Abnormal Behaviour Description tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tylenol Cold And Flu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Generic For Tamiflu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Increased Effexor Rx Flu Like Symptoms chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Complete Entire Treatment Of Tamiflu tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Swine Flu Wisconsin tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Tamiflu Abnormal Behaviour Documentation tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Flu Symptoms And Treatment who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Tamiflu Side Effects pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Soap Note On Tamiflu stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Cdc Flu Shot Tylenol influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu For Bird Flu And 2007 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Tamiflu Recent News pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu And Children swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Tamiflu Influenza A swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Tamiflu No Prescription tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Signs Of Swine Flu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" h1n1 flu symptoms Flu Treatment tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Tamiflu Pediatrics tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Find Buy Tamiflu Ebay tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. N1h1 Flu Prevention N95 Respirator Guidelines acheter tamifluwhat are some treatments of swine flu
Swine Flu Conspiracy flu symptoms prilosec flu map? Fda Recommendations Using Tamiflu With Children Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Ambien Flu tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Tamiflu And Seizure And Class Action tamiflu without a prescribtionflu medication tamiflu
H1n1 Flu Symptoms swine flu symptoms and treatments symptoms of the swine flu Alternative Treatment Swine Flu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Oseltamivir Tamiflu Benefits Risks Community swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Pandemic Tamiflu tamiflu shelf life tylenol cold and flu severe Who Makes Tamiflu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Hsbc Tamiflu Tablets Flu Pandemic tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Tamiflu Suspension Without Prescription intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Post-exposure Tamiflu Dosing "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Swine Flu Info tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Japan tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Natural Swine Flu Prevention swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Fda Tamiflu rebate on tamiflu,depo provera flu interfere!
Tamiflu Synovitis tamiflu and seizure swine flu alternative treatments health? Dog Flu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea 12 Mg Tamiflu tamiflu invent prevention of fluSwine Flu Death Victems On Tamiflu
chilli cold and flu treatment flu vaccine! Pediatric Tamiflu tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Lexapro Flu tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Central Forida Flu Shoots tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Swine Flu Epidemic who invented tamiflu reactions to tamiflu Tamiflu Alcohol pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Can You Get Better From H1n1 Without Tamiflu stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu Liquid influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Stomach Flu Duration 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Swine Flu History pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tylenol Flu Pills swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Tamiflu Bird Flu Virus swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Bactrim For Sinus Infection Flu tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Flu Like Symptoms From Prilosec Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Tamiflu Prophylaxis "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Tamiflu Gilead Rumsfeld tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Medience Tamiflu Children tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu I Get Tamiflu tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Mexican Flu acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu How Did Swine Flu Start flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Swine Flu Jokes Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescriptionSwine Flu In Ohio
tamiflu antiviral stockpiling;
tamiflu price Flu Shot Treatment For Multiple Sclerosis tamiflu without a prescribtion flu masks Tamiflu Cpt Code swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Tamiflu Oral Suspension molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tamiflu From Canada swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; 2009 Flu Multnomah County Oregon tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time How Long Do I Take Tamiflu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Philadelphia Area Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Flu Remedy Tamiflu intestinal flu no rx tamiflu What Organism Causes The Swine Flu "medwatch form for tamiflu"wiki tamiflu
Buy Tamiflu Lowest Cost tamiflu otc tamiflu parvo Bird Flu Symptoms tamiflutamiflu manufacturer gilliad
Tamiflu Cost Comparison swine flu mask; ontario tamiflu & immunosuppressed patients? Tylenol Cold And Flu Recall rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Symptoms Swine Flu tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Hong Kong Flu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Swine Flu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Antiviral Tamiflu chilli cold and flu treatmentgilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu
Tamiflu Efficacy tamiflu and parvo parvo tamiflu Tamiflu Buy tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Swine Flu Preventions tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Tylenol Cough And Flu who invented tamiflu reactions to tamiflu How To Prepare For Swine Flu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Swine Flu Ohio stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Swine Flu Update influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Treatment Of Flu 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Tamiflu On Line pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu Ontario swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Tamiflu For Treating Parvo In Puppies swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Flu Treatments Without Tylenol tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Fle Vaccinations Tamiflu Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Otc Tamiflu "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Tamiflu Longer Than 2 Days tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Tamiflu Oseltamivir tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Tamiflu Cost tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Alendronic Acid Tamiflu acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Ibuprofen For Children After Flu flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companysHow Does Tamiflu Work
Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. bird flu tamiflu National Guard Dispatched To Protect Tamiflu Suppliestamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu revlu Triazolone Tamiflu tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tylenol Flu swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Panleukopenia And Tamiflu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment On-line Tamiflu Prescreening For Prophylaxis swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; What Is The Action Of Tamiflu tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Cold Vs Flu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Texas Swine Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Swine Flu Pictures intestinal flu no rx tamiflu What Are Some Treatments Of Swine Flu "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Tamiflu Elderly tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Not Effective H5n1 tamiflu tamiflu mexico; Symptons Of Swine Flu swine flu in mexico! panleukopenia and tamiflu Relenza Vs Tamiflu rebate on tamiflu,
depo provera flu interfere!
Flu Prevention Signs tamiflu and seizure swine flu alternative treatments health? Tamiflu Influenza aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Flu Vaccine Tylenol Cdc tamiflu invent prevention of flu Photos Of Tamiflu chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Disposal Expired Tamiflu tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Zoloft Interact Cold Flu tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Tamiflu For West Nile Virus tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Cold And Flu Treatments who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms History Of Swine Flupravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu
flu shoot clinics northwestern pa Home Remedy For Swine Flu stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Where Can I Get Tamiflu influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Bronchitus Tamiflu 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Tamiflu When Pregnant pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu For Only 4 Daysswine flu wisconsin?
flu vaccine! Swine Flu Vaccination swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Mercury In Flu Shots tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu History Of Flu Vaccination Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Swine Flu Virus "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Cdc Indications For Tamiflu tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Tamiflu Melbournetamiflu hemorrhoid
tamiflu dosing instructions Swine Flu Containment Treatment tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Not Completing Tamiflu For 5 Days acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Tamiflu Online flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Reactions To The Flu Shoot Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription How Long Does The Flu Usually Last tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Flu Shot And Symmetrel tamiflu without a prescribtion flu masks What If I Dont Finish Tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Flu Shoot Locator molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tamiflu High Blood Pressure swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Tamiflu 15 Million Ecological Disaster tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Stomach Flu 2009 Boulder County Schools tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu how it works Tamiflu Purchase Avian Bird Flu tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Pharmacist Role In Flu Tamiflu intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Flu Medicine Tamiflu "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Tamiflu Prescription Drug tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Warning tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Flu Shoots Dallas Locations swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Bird Flu Prevention rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Lexapro And Flu Symptons tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tamiflu Purchase Mexico aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Differential Smear Of Flu Patient tamiflu invent prevention of flu Tamiflu Reactions chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Depo Provera Flu Shot Interfere tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Still Died After Taking Tamiflu tamiflu roche swine flu cartoons Tamiflu Iingredientstamiflu roche dick cheney?
flu injection vs plavix Mail Order Tamiflu who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Tylenol Flu Severe pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Order Tamiflu Paypal stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Prednisone And The Flu Shot influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu;Tamiflu Drug Interactions 2009 flu multnomah county oregon
remedy for stomach flu
Swine Flu Precautions pediatric tamiflu babies tamiflu Tamiflu Dry Syrup swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Ap News Tamiflu swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Swine Flu Symptoms Incubation Time tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Tamiflu Canada Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Depo Flu Provera Symptom "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Tamiflu Shelf Life tamiflu alcohol rebate on tamiflu, Newsday Counterfeit Tamiflu tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Tamiflu Prescribing tamiflu dosing instructions star anise in tamiflu Flu Valtrex acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Is Tamiflu Over The Counter flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Voltarol Flu Like Symptom Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Swine Flu April 26tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu revlu Symptoms Treatment For The Flu tamiflu without a prescribtion
flu georgia
Swine Flu Updates swine flu symptoms and treatments symptoms of the swine flu Childrens Tylenol Plus Flu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Newborns And Tamiflu swine flu in ohio tamiflu flu Tamiflu And Supply Chain tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Blue Cross Tamiflu Nebraska tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Merck Tamiflu tamiflu for only 4 days ibuprofen for children after flu Swine Flu Cdc intestinal flu no rx tamiflu Flu Injection Vs Plavix "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Flu Symptons From Lexapro tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Tender Singapore tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad How Long Is The Flu Contagious swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Tamiflu Sales rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Tamiflu Swine Flu tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Cdc Swine Flu Prevention aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Prevention Swine Flu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Flu Vaccine And Prednisone chilli cold and flu treatmentgilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu
Flu Mask tamiflu and parvo pharmacist role in flu tamiflu Bird Avian Flu Prevention, Treatment Tamiflu tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Philadelphia Flu Shoots Acme tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs How Does Flu Affect Hearing who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Swin Flu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Tamiflu Parvo stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu Vaccines And Antiviral Drugs influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Tamiflu Inf 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Flu Masks pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu Mfg swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Tamiflu Infants Powder swine flu masks? tamiflu suspension Tylenol Severe Cold Flu tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Tamiflu Available By Prescription Only Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Tamiflu Symptoms For A Week "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Swine Flu Outbreak tamiflu alcohol relenza vs tamiflu Weaponized Swine Flu tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu How Tamiflu Works tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Who Should Stockpile Tamiflu acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Home Treatment Of The Flu flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Swine Flu Cartoon Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Ontario Tamiflu Immunosuppressed Patients tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Origin Of Swine Flu tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Swine Flu In Illinois swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Tamiflu Ordering molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tamiflu For Parvo swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Get A Flu Shoot In Nyc tamiflu shelf life tylenol cold and flu severe Acme Philadelphia Flu Shoots Acme tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Avian Resistance Tamiflu 2008 tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Tamiflu Lost Voice intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Tamiflu Adverse Reaction "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Tamiflu In Dogs tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Feline Panleukopenia Tamiflu tamiflu tamiflu mexico; Pediatric Tamiflu Pyschiatric swine flu in mexico! panleukopenia and tamiflu Swine Flu Outbreak Map rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! Tamiflu Drinking Alcohol tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy How To Store Tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Symptoms Of The Flu tamiflu invent prevention of flu Rder Tamiflu For Dogs chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Tamiflu And Weight Gain tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Cdc Tamiflu tamiflu roche swine flu cartoons How To Give Tamiflu Vaccine tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Mexican Flu Prevention Vancouver who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Swine Flu In Mexico pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Swine Flu Symtoms stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu Stockpile Singapore influenza a tamiflu acme philadelphia flu shoots acme Tylenol Cold And Flu Medicine 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Flu Prevention Pamphlet pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Swine Flu Cover Up swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Tamiflu Expiry Date swine flu masks? tamiflu suspension Spainish Flu tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Facts On The Flu Shot Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Swine Flu Methotrexate "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Immunity Low After Tamiflu tamiflu alcohol rebate on tamiflu, Tamiflu For Sale tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Can You Buy Tamiflu Otc tamiflu dosing instructions Stomach flu and treatments stomach flu asprin tylenol 642. Gastric Flu Treatment acheter tamiflu weaponized swine flu; Tamiflu En Espana flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Tamiflu What Abnormal Behaviour Was Exhibited Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Flu Vaccine tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Parvo With Tamiflu tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tamiflu 60 Mg swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Pros And Cons Of Tamiflu molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tylenol Cold Flu swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Oseltamivir Tamiflu tamiflu shelf life tylenol cold and flu severe Tamiflu Nyquil tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Tamiflu Recall tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Flu Shoot Baltimore Location intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Roche Tamiflu Government "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Flu Activity tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Purchase Tamiflu No Prescription tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Where To Buy Tamiflu swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Motrin Cold Flu rebate on tamiflu, depo provera flu interfere! What Is Tamiflu tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Map Of Swine Flu Cases aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Will Tamiflu Help Reduce Fever tamiflu invent prevention of flu Stop Tamiflu Make Flu Worse chilli cold and flu treatment gilead science donald rumsfeld tamiflu Publics Florida Flu Shoots tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Swine Flu In Florida tamiflu roche swine flu death toll Tamiflu Withdrawal tamiflu roche dick cheney? flu prevention signs Tamiflu Stomach Flu who invented tamiflu reactions to tamiflu Tamiflu From Mexico pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Is The Swine Flu Bullshit stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu Producer influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Flu Virus 2009 flu multnomah county oregon rumsfeld's growing stake in tamiflu fort detrick Swine Flu Syptoms pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; swine flu wisconsin? flu vaccine! Tamiflu swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Tamiflu Excretion tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Flu Fosamax Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Obama Tamiflu"post-exposure tamiflu dosing"
h1n1 flu symptoms Swine Flu In California tamiflu alcohol rebate on tamiflu, Tamiflu Over The Countertamiflu hemorrhoid
tamiflu dosing instructions Tamiflu History tamiflu dosing instructions star anise in tamiflu H1n1 Flu acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Price Of Tamiflu flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Tamiflu And Extended Shelf Life Program Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription Flagyl Flu Symptoms tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Tamiflu And Relenza tamiflu without a prescribtion flu masks Cost Of Tamiflu swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Tamiflu Dosing Instructions molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Swine Flu North Carolina swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Swine Flu And Steroid Treatment tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Donald Rumsfield Tamiflu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Swine Flu Indiana tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Who Swine Flu intestinal flu number needed to treat for tamiflu Flu Shot And Tylenol"medwatch form for tamiflu"
"when to take tamiflu" Tamiflu Medical tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tamiflu Price tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Swine Flu Funny swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Flu Shoots Essex County Ny rebate on tamiflu, depo flu provera symptom Cipro Tamiflu Drug Interaction tamiflu and seizure swine flu conspiracy Tamiflu Dosing aids tamiflu flu; tamiflu nausea Stomach Flutamiflu invent
pediatric tamiflu
Swine Flu Treatment For Uninsured chilli cold and flu treatment flu vaccine! Side Effects Of Tamiflu tamiflu and parvo prophylactic tamiflu Aids Tamiflu Flu tamiflu roche swine flu death toll How Long Does Swine Flu Lasttamiflu roche dick cheney?
flu injection vs plavix Flu Georgia who invented tamiflu rogaine flu symptoms Donations Of Tamiflu pravachol nexium actos phentermine tamiflu flu shot and tylenol, Tamiflu Yeast Infections stock ticker who makes tamiflu does tamiflu work Tamiflu And Dangers influenza a tamiflu aids tamiflu flu; Pandemic Flu2009 flu multnomah county oregon remedy for stomach flu Rosuvastatin Flu Treatment pediatric tamiflu buy tamiflu; Tamiflu Mexico swine flu wisconsin? "generic for tamiflu" Incubation Period For Swine Flu swine flu masks? tamiflu uk shop? Prophylactic Tamiflu tamiflu on line tamiflu stomach flu Stomach Flu Treatment Tylenol flu pregnant tylenol flu severe 718. flu treatments without tylenol! Swine Flu Outbreaks "post-exposure tamiflu dosing" home treatment of the flu Gilead Science Donald Rumsfeld Tamiflu tamiflu alcohol rebate on tamiflu, Tamiflu Orders tamiflu hemorrhoid tamiflu flu Flu Shoots tamiflu dosing instructions star anise in tamiflu Spanish Flu acheter tamiflu what are some treatments of swine flu Flu Pandemic flu symptoms prilosec flu shoots companys Drug Interactions With Tamiflu Swine flu swine flu 1976 147. buy tamiflu without a prescription State Purchase Of Tamiflu tamiflu antiviral stockpiling; tamiflu suspension no prescription Medicine Tamiflu tamiflu without a prescribtion flu medication tamiflu Tucson Flu Shoots swine flu symptoms and treatments tamiflu adverse events Tamiflu In North Carolina molen flu shoots cdc + swine flu treatment Tamiflu Experience swine flu in ohio tamiflu for bird flu and 2007; Tamiflu Availabilty tamiflu shelf life tylenol flu night time Prevention Of Swine Flu tamiflu and effectiveness and safety tamiflu in dogs! Can Celexa Cause Flu Like Symptoms tamiflu for only 4 days ingridients of tamiflu Flu Shots intestinal flu no rx tamiflu Swine Flu Pandemic "medwatch form for tamiflu" wiki tamiflu Swine Flu Cancun tamiflu otc tamiflu recalls Tylenol Flu Night Time tamiflu tamiflu manufacturer gilliad Government Buys Tamiflu swine flu mask; panleukopenia and tamiflu Flu Symptoms Headache rebate on tamiflu,
This is a place where open-minded critical thinkers of all political persuasions encounter information and arguments that both support and challenge their preconceptions. The goal is not to eliminate differences but to narrow and clarify them. We begin with a bedrock agreement that the search for insight and clarity is important, serious - and fun.
We ask commenters to be civil and substantive and, if possible, good humored. We reserve the right to delete comments that disregard this request.
Do you use Twitter? Follow The Big Question.
Subscribe to The Big Question
Learn more about RSS
Politically Connected Blogs
Archives
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- October 2007
- September 2007
- August 2007
- July 2007
- June 2007
- May 2007
- April 2007
- March 2007
- February 2007
- January 2007
- December 2006
- November 2006
- October 2006
- September 2006
- August 2006
- July 2006
- June 2006
- May 2006
- April 2006
- March 2006
- January 2006
- December 2005
Categories
- 1st District (3)
- 2nd District (2)
- 3rd District (9)
- 4th District (2)
- 5th District (5)
- 6th District (1)
- Al Franken (27)
- Amy Klobuchar (1)
- Barack Obama (7)
- Collin Peterson (1)
- Conventions (7)
- economy (9)
- Erik Paulsen (2)
- Fred Thompson (2)
- health care (15)
- Hillary Rodham Clinton (6)
- House (3)
- In Congress (1)
- Iraq (14)
- John Edwards (3)
- John Kline (2)
- John McCain (11)
- Keith Ellison (1)
- Main (1225)
- Michele Bachmann (22)
- Mike Ciresi (10)
- Mike Huckabee (1)
- Mitt Romney (3)
- Norm Coleman (33)
- Presidential (26)
- Presidential Democratic (16)
- Presidential Republican (19)
- Ron Paul (4)
- Rudy Giuliani (2)
- San Brownback (1)
- Senate (17)
- State (11)
- Tim Pawlenty (13)
- Tim Walz (1)
- Tom Tancredo (1)