Kline blasts Dems for rushing health care bill

July 17th, 2009 – 3:52 PM by Eric Roper

Rep. John Kline, who recently became the ranking Republican on the House Committee on Education and Labor, issued a searing statement to Democrats this morning, criticising them for rushing a 1,000 page health care reform bill through the committee without proper deliberation.

The bill, which Kline called a “government takeover of our nation’s health care system” in a statement, was approved by the committee this morning.

“Democrats’ stubborn insistence on voting when the ink had scarcely dried on the page belies a frantic rush to ratify unsound policy before its inadequacies – and consequences – could be fully realized,” Kline wrote.

He finished the statement by saying, “The American people deserve better than the Democrats’ frenzied, partisan antics.”

The reaction shows a much more outspoken side of Kline, reflecting his new position as the ranking minority member on a key House committee.

The House version of the bill includes provisions for a “public option,” in which the government offers its own health insurance. At least one other Minnesota representative, Rep. Keith Ellison, is a major supporter of that provision. (See his Youtube video where he interviews fellow House members about why their should be a public option.)

The Obama administration has been pushing for the bill to get passed and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has predicted it will reach a floor vote by the August recess – though she backed down slightly from that timetable on Friday.

223 Responses to "Kline blasts Dems for rushing health care bill"

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but what does using the same picture three times or more say?

Cash N. Carey says:

July 17th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

Central – sorry I posted a bad link. I believe this was the one you were looking for:

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=328

dare2sayit.com says:

July 17th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

I wonder of any of the libs will actually READ the bill this time, unlike the massive Porkulus Bill. I think Obama is in a big rush to pass this disaster before the American people can wake up and realize how much harm it would do to our economy.

Kline is right in wanting to want until we really know what we’re getting ourselves into.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 17th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

Maybe I missed it earlier. Where was all of the liberal indignation for Barbara Boxer’s racist comments?

dare2sayit.com says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

I’ve been commenting on the blog Dump Bachmann for many years, but a whining moderator called “Avidor” just banned me. He said I was “off topic” which I wasn’t in my reply to someone else’s question.

The truth is he was offended that I blamed Barney Frank for some of the problems with the financial institutions (which is true), how dare I offend his hero!

להקיא says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

I posted the following comment on the last thread, and no one responded, so I’m going to post it again.

Maybe it was a dream, but for the past decade or more, I’ve heard healthcare reform activists railing against the insurance industry’s practice of having their bean counters dictating how the doctors should treat their patients, rather than letting docs and patients determine the best course of treatment.

Obama says “it’s important for the government to work with doctors and hospitals to determine the best care possible, as a rule, for specific ailments”.

Anyone care to explain how the government bean counters are going to make me healthier that insurance company bean counters?

I fail to see any improvement over my current health care situation, other than the fact that it would make it easier for me to quit my job.

Not to mention the CBO’s report regarding the cost of the plan poses questions of how effective it would be.

I agree with Kline. The Dems are rushingto pass something that deserves more careful consideration.

להקיא says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pm

Not that I would expect Eric the Red (couldn’t resist) to mention it here, but a lot of dems share the same opinion as Kline.

WASHINGTON (CNN) — The fight over health care reform took center stage on Capitol Hill on Friday, as the House Democratic leadership stepped up its push for passage of a bill before the August congressional recess.

President Obama says health care is at the top of his domestic agenda.

An influential group of Senate moderates, however, broke with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and President Obama by releasing a letter urging a slower timetable.

Obama, who has put health care reform at the top of his domestic agenda, pushed Congress to get the job done.

“Now is not the time to slow down, and now is certainly not the time to lose heart,” the president said from the White House.

“Those who are betting against this happening this year are badly mistaken,” he said. “It will happen this year.”

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:33 pm

Not that I would expect Eric the Red (couldn’t resist) to mention it here, but a lot of dems share the same opinion as Kline.

Gee, Vomit. Where were you on the thread about McCollum criticisms on proposed changes in Medicare payments to MN hospitals? All it got was one comment from D2 and my comment on D2′s comment.

להקיא says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:43 pm

Gee, Vomit. Where were you on the thread about McCollum criticisms on proposed changes in Medicare payments to MN hospitals?

July 14th, 2009 – 4:07 PM – picking up prescriptions.

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

“July 14th, 2009 – 4:07 PM – picking up prescriptions.”

Good alibi for abstaining. If the bill shortchanges the Mn Health Care System Florida probably has less to complain about.

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

“Anyone care to explain how the government bean counters are going to make me healthier that insurance company bean counters?”

Sure, the government will hire away all the insurance company bean counters for a better wage and the insurance compay execs will have to do the bean counting themselves while taking wage reductions to appease their investors.

Your health would be better served by government bean counters at that point.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 17th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

“Sure, the government will hire away all the insurance company bean counters for a better wage and the insurance compay execs will have to do the bean counting themselves while taking wage reductions to appease their investors.”

There won’t be any private options, so the government will hire the insurance company bean counters at the minimum wage they’ll accept, which since their options are limited, might be minimum wage.

Private insurers can’t compete with a Government entity that doesn’t have to make a profit, and has the supposedly endless American taxpayer to back up it’s losses.

Additionally the bill in the house says that they can’t issue any new policies after it passes.

(A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

They don’t have a chance.

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

“Private insurers can’t compete with a Government entity that doesn’t have to make a profit, and has the supposedly endless American taxpayer to back up it’s losses.”

How can the private insurers offer the bean counters a better than minimum wage now? If the investors profit enough to award the top executives wealth beyond belief and their employees a living wage, then who is the loser in this zero sum game?

The only entrepreneurial risk justifying such overhead and executive compensation in the private insurance industry is the risk in denying applicants or claimants due to pre-existing conditions. (Tort reform is code for eliminating such risk.)

This adversarial relationship with the insured when “losses” threaten to overtake premiums (without the intrepid deniers) is what makes the plans so ruinous for employers required to provide coverage, for private purchasers unwilling to risk living without insurance, and for taxpayers forced to “bail out” the remaining public accesses for the uninsured to obtain emergency health services.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 17th, 2009 at 9:01 pm

I just got back from the Sherburne Country Fair parade in Elk River. You wouldn’t believe all the people wearing warm jackets in late July. The Strib says today was a record cold high temperature for July 17th, and yesterday, liberal activist Paul Douglas reluctantly divulged that parts of Northern Minnesota could possibly see Minnesota’s first recorded snow in the month of July.

More proof of “Global Warming” I guess.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 17th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

“then who is the loser in this zero sum game?”

Do you know the definition of “zero sum”? because that’s not what you described. Do you think tax cuts are “zero sum” too?

“The only entrepreneurial risk justifying such overhead and executive compensation in the private insurance industry is the risk in denying applicants or claimants due to pre-existing conditions. (Tort reform is code for eliminating such risk.)”

They pushed the market too far and now they are paying for it.

“This adversarial relationship with the insured when “losses” threaten to overtake premiums”

Yeah it’s so adversarial that nearly 90% of Americans are happy with their health care.

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 10:26 pm

“More proof of “Global Warming” I guess.”

No, proof would be a hot day in December.

adlib says:

July 17th, 2009 at 10:33 pm

“Yeah it’s so adversarial that nearly 90% of Americans are happy with their health care.”

Yes, but a high number of these are the good risks who are serene in the belief that the same health care system that gives them outstanding scores in all their checkups so far will be there for them if their health ever declines.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 17th, 2009 at 10:54 pm

d2si states: “I’ve been commenting on the blog Dump Bachmann for many years, but a whining moderator called “Avidor” just banned me. He said I was “off topic” which I wasn’t in my reply to someone else’s question.”

Wasn’t Avidor the guy that was stalking Bachmann years ago? Hasn’t he found a life yet? My how bitter the libs can be.

GO lonoscopy says:

July 17th, 2009 at 11:04 pm

I wonder what the argument was against the Social Security tax program. I would imagine it to be the same argument against government medical benefits.

Bottom line is no one knows the effects of a government mandated heath program until it is put into motion and we have a 10 year window of hindsight.

To attempt to compare it to European or canadian programs is a joke. Our economic output is so much greater than thiers.

I say give it a spin, But not a blind eye toss that an august bill would need.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 17th, 2009 at 11:38 pm

“Wasn’t Avidor the guy that was stalking Bachmann years ago?”

Cash, I think Avidor is a radical homosexual activist who was suffering from PMS about he time he banned me for life. I’ve been commenting on the libertal blog Dump Bachmann for many years, but this power hungry fool accused me of being “off topic”, but he really didn’t like his idol Barney Frank being accused of contributing to the financial crisis.

If the Dump Bachmann blog really wants to be taken seriously, they need to get extremists like “Avidor” who has been wanting to ban conservative comments for quite a while now, under control.

I will try commenting again shortly, watch if they allow me in.

h**p://dumpbachmann.blogspot.com/

SgtPendleton says:

July 18th, 2009 at 8:00 am

More proof of “Global Warming” I guess.

That’s actually just proof that you’re a dumb@ss.

…and you’re the undisputed king of off-topic posts. What else did you say about Barney Frank? I know you have a really hard time not saying things that are offensive.

SgtPendleton says:

July 18th, 2009 at 8:03 am

And Bachmann isn’t stalked by gay people — SHE stalks THEM:

http://tinyurl.com/l2f2sl

6th district Jim says:

July 18th, 2009 at 8:42 am

More proof of “Global Warming” I guess.
That’s actually just proof that you’re a dumb@ss

The GW fans are reeling, of this there is no doubt. I guess this is why the big rush to call it something else.
The funny thing is I cant! find “warming” anywhere I go–

Az was freezing after the Gopher game in January–Flagstaff had more snow than us….

I went to Vegas in march, for the NCAA’s, and they were bemoaning the lack of their first 80 till late March

Chicago for the cubs/twins in June, and Chitown had their coldest June in the last 100 years.
Now, here…….61 yesterday in midJuly.
I saw the urban heat island hit 65 :o )

I especially love Mr Dorky’s citing NASA as the go to source on temps–the same yahoos who keep blowing up their astronauts, and now lost the original video of the moon landing. NASA is now to science what PeeWee Herman was to fashion.

Did you see the featured letter/ed yesterday about Mr Smoking President and Ms Chubby surgeon general–ie no wonder we cant solve our healthcare issues…..our leaders are hypocrites deluxe.
What a great letter!

adlib says:

July 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am

“I say give it a spin, But not a blind eye toss that an august bill would need.”

That makes sense to me. Too many objections remain such as Betty McCollum’s complaint that MN hospitals get inadequately reimbursed by Medicare for services leading to good results than do other states’ systems.

The bill needs all the Dems and a few Republicans on board with it to become the landmark legislation it hopes to be.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 18th, 2009 at 10:03 am

Sarge, The Dump Bachmann blog has become less credible by allowing Avidor to become their new Censorship Czar. They were already screening comments before they were posted and allowed just about anything through as long as it wasn’t profane, but now they are also filtering conservative thought. They only thing I said about Barney Frank was that he was responsible for much of the mortgage crisis and should be held accountable.

Here is my reply to avidor this morning after he told me I was permantly banned:
********************
Avidor,

It’s pricks like you who give homosexuals a bad name. You remind me of very unfriendly
gay neighbor I had in NE MPLS who towed a friend of mines car because he made the honest
mistake of parking too close to his house, and it was gone in minutes. My Dad who was the
manager of some condominiums a while back was also fired by a homosexual had been
recently elected board member. My Dad was doing a great job, but this guy just wanted to
flex his muscle and show how important he was. I’ve seen many examples of this kind of
stuff.

Why do so many homosexual men like you have an uncontrollable urge to push people around?
You just reinforced the negative stereotype I already had.

Again, I did nothing “ban worthy”, you just don’t like hearing my conservative thoughts
and have some new found power to censor them. Dump Bachmann is now less of a blog with
you as a moderator and your own version of the Fairness Doctrine censorship policy. I
think people will get bored hearing only the liberal side of things with nobody to debate
with.

I hope your new role as censorship czar works out for Dump Bachmann. You are perfect for
it!

D2SI

dare2sayit.com says:

July 18th, 2009 at 10:05 am

Sorry about the formatting.

GO lonoscopy says:

July 18th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

“Last year’s global average temperature was the 10th warmest since 1850. Eight of the past 10 years, and 13 of the last 14, are among the warmest on record, with each year since 2000 warmer than any year in the 90’s except 1998.”

The above is the typical response one would get from a “Globull Warming Enthusiast”.

2009 – 1850 = 159 years.

159 – 10 = 149 years.

I would say that the warming daya are the exception to the rule.

In other words, We have had 149 years of normal weather the past 159 years. Except for 1998.

GO lonoscopy says:

July 18th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

P.S.
I’m not a rocket scientist.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 18th, 2009 at 1:33 pm

GO,

What’s the weather like in Oregon? Yesterday we had record cold temperatures across Minnesota, and today you just about need a jacket. It’s pretty chilly outside today which is VERY unusual for late July, the hottest time of the year.

adlib says:

July 18th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

“2009 – 1850 = 159 years.
159 – 10 = 149 years”

We’re measuring averages from 1850 because…?
That’s as far as the data goes back ?That’s when industry started pumping carbon into the atmosphere big time ?

Yes, I wish we could all take a geological perspective. There were times when the planet was too hot for any life forms. If human-produced carbon emissions are changing the climate it’s a bit species centric to think we’re the only cure for it.

Maybe some asteroid impacting Earth or a rise in volcanic activity or a nucleur winter will replace the green politics with survivalism. But green’s the way to AS IF we could affect our own fate. It would certainly boost the the US economy to become world leader in the technology buildup due to this global conceit of saving life as we know it.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 18th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

adlib,

If we are serious about helping the planet, we need to do something about Third World Overpopulation instead of forcing more jobs over to India and Communist China with the Cap and Trade tax.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 18th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

Watch out for the white folk, they’re gonna riot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hFiab7fjak

Cash N. Carey says:

July 18th, 2009 at 11:21 pm

The latest global averaged satellite temperature data showed yet that the Earth’s temperature has dropped once again. Since 2006, the Earth has cooled 0.7 degrees.

Global cooling!

SgtPendleton says:

July 19th, 2009 at 12:10 am

It’s pricks like you who give homosexuals a bad name.

Wow, I can’t imagine why he’d bother reading the rest of your message with an opening like that.

…and Jim – I can respect someone who disagrees that humans are causing global warming, so please tell me that you’re only being facetious when saying that a cool day in summer = proof there is no global warming.

O.T. says:

July 19th, 2009 at 6:49 am

The Health Care bill is a big payback to all of the Unions that gave tens of millions to his campaign. All of the new workers, secretaries, med techs, etc will all need to be signed up for union membership. Anyone doubt this?

6th district Jim says:

July 19th, 2009 at 8:53 am

and Jim – I can respect someone who disagrees that humans are causing global warming, so please tell me that you’re only being facetious when saying that a cool day in summer = proof there is no global warming.

No, I didnt say one day. The trouble with the GW’ers is there are massive long periods of record cool periods across this fine country. It doesnt take geniuses to think, HMMMM.?. That is why the whole thing has a new name: climate change.
And again, humans DO warm the weather–the big black vs white coloring is an obvious one–but the climate has massively warmed in the last 20k years.
MN is likely up 40 degrees.
And humans havent caused most (or any?) of that……

Even worse, the relatively smallish, IPCC gets its position as the only one that gets the “media coverage,” while huge conferences like the ICCC one in New York is ingnored by the media and the GW’ers. Global Warming as a cause is a joke, just like calling health care coverage “insurance,” rather than a payment service.
Words have meaning, and that is lost in the decades-long dumbing down of our society.
I would love a blue-ribbon committee on Global warming that had a panel of equal numbers of pro and nay sayers, but I doubt we will be so lucky.
The truth is out there………..but scientific debate is totally squelched by our recent administrations–
ie the smoking President nominates the chubby Surgeon General–
clear science on both of these issues is totally ignored by professionals.

That symbolizes why our country is effed-up.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am

“ie the smoking President nominates the chubby Surgeon General–
clear science on both of these issues is totally ignored by professionals.”

Liberals really are hypocrites aren’t they. Look at Al Gore for example, getting paid big bucks to fly around the world and preach about the “Global Warming Hoax” ON HIS PRIVATE JET! Nancy Pelosi not only insists on going back to San Fransicko every weekend from Washington, but she feels she is too good to fly commercial and uses a large private jet so she doesn’t have to be bothered with refueling on the way, at taxpayers expense. Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi are big GW’ers while being two of the biggest polluters on the planet.

Now wonder the Congress controlled by soci@list democrats has about the lowest approval rating ever.

6th district Jim says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:17 am

I do agree the hypocrisy is enormous, but alas, there is plenty on both sides with Sanford, Ensign, and the like.
And I wish W had simply appointed a blue ribbon GW panel, but he was afraid to confront the media on this, and waffled thru the last years as well…..

And I cant remember the last House speaker for the Repubs, but he was also a doctor, and the size of a “House,” too.

D2:
I simply want someone of any political stipe to
*balance a budget
*tort reform the lawyers, like everyone else is getting squeezed
*protect the borders
*kill terrorists
*promote capitalism rather than govt takeovers (dare I say, fascism)

Know anybody?
Actually, Bachmann fits that mold!
Long live the 6th district!
Anybody else?

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:18 am

It’s 43F in St. Cloud right now!

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:26 am

*balance a budget
*tort reform the lawyers, like everyone else is getting squeezed
*protect the borders
*kill terrorists
*promote capitalism rather than govt takeovers (dare I say, fascism)

Jim, the democrat soci@list party which is totally in charge of Washington seems to be doing exactly the opposite and heading us in the wrong direction. I’m glad that some democrats are now starting to speak out against Obama’s soci@list agenda, and that may be the only think which can save our economy before 2010 when many of them will be tossed out.

I agree with your comment on Bush. He was right on tax cuts and the war on terror, but he was too liberal on other issues such as spending and controlling the massive flood of illegal aliens.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:34 am

KSTP news just reported that the water temperature in Lake Mille Lacs is currently 61F, burrrrrrr.

More proof of “Globull Warming”.

SgtPendleton says:

July 19th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Do you think you’re going to convince intelligent people that global warming is false because it’s 61 at Mille Lacs?

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

“Do you think you’re going to convince intelligent people that global warming is false because it’s 61 at Mille Lacs?”

No, I’m just doing what liberals do. The other night on the Obama state run NBC Nightly News, they made a big deal out of how warm and dry parts of Texas were. You never hear a peep out of them when it’s colder than normal though such as the record cold we’ve been seeing.

adlib says:

July 19th, 2009 at 4:44 pm

“More proof of “Global Warming” I guess.”

No, proof would be a hot day in December……in Tierra del Fuego.

If you’re waiting for that kind of proof it will come too late to mitigate any man made climate change.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 6:04 pm

“If you’re waiting for that kind of proof it will come too late to mitigate any man made climate change.”

Why should we destroy our economy to try solving a problem which doesn’t exist? All we will be doing with the Cap and Trade tax raising the price of virtually everything for Americans while forcing more jobs over to India and China where they refuse to cooperate in any type of climate action.

SgtPendleton says:

July 19th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

We’re not destroying our economy moron – it’s a whole new industry that’s position for growth. As the “buzz” around the world improves for green this and green that, we have the opportunity to be at the forefront of that technology, much in the same way that we were an industrial giant in the 20th century. But people like you think we should follow the old models of simply using up non-renewable resources while they’re still cheap. That’s not sustainable growth.

So you’re sitting here focusing on whether or not global warming is real or not – when it’s sort of beside the point.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 19th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

sarge states: “We’re not destroying our economy moron – it’s a whole new industry that’s position for growth. ”

Really sarge? If it was such a great opportunity, private companies would be investing in it without government subsidies. Of course the same folks that are shoveling the green nonsense are those that told us that unemployment wouldn’t be over 8%. That the stimulus plan would create or save 3.5 million jobs. That the stimulus bill’s impact would start immediately.

“No genius was required to see the stimulus wasn’t going to work because it consisted mostly of pork-barrel projects of such dubious merit that not even a Democratic Congress was likely to have approved them if they hadn’t been bundled together to reduce scrutiny and rushed through under the guise of an emergency. As Mr. Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, put it: “You never want a serious crisis to go to waste.”‘

http://tinyurl.com/nuywhz

The same is true of globull warming. These folks are anti-freedom. They are trying to keep us from making the intelligent choice that we already are making. The invisible hand – try it. It works.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 19th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

“We’re not destroying our economy moron – it’s a whole new industry that’s position for growth.”

If we pass the Cap and Trade tax, you’re damn right we will be destroying the economy Sarge.

SgtPendleton says:

July 19th, 2009 at 8:32 pm

Really sarge? If it was such a great opportunity, private companies would be investing in it without government subsidies. Of course the same folks that are shoveling the green nonsense are those that told us that unemployment wouldn’t be over 8%. That the stimulus plan would create or save 3.5 million jobs. That the stimulus bill’s impact would start immediately.

Oh great wizard of economic data, tell me how it is, CNC. You can’t even tell me what the “presdiential approval index” is, but I’m supposed believe you on this? Pfft.

They’re already investing in it – maybe they didn’t report this on the 700 Club? My argument was that green is good for the economy, not bad. You guys are masters of the strategic misunderstood question.

The invisible hand is promoting green industries, to which you’re apparently oblivious. People tried these same arguments back during the progressive era — oh, it’s anti-freedom! It’s commie! But the progressive movement is what allowed the US to have the highest standard of living in the history of the world up to that time. Green is good for business.

D2, cap and trade is going to chase all these companies overseas because of the low energy costs? So the fact that they can pay a Chinese worker $1 day to make stuff isn’t going to drive them away, but a cap and trade system will? Right.

parthian says:

July 19th, 2009 at 8:50 pm

Is the invisible hand “working” hard on you, Cash? I suppose it is….

BQ has really become a fever site ignorant right-wing male lunatics, it’s essentially worthless as a place for any intelligent observations at this point.

Yeah, a public option by the incompetent federal gub’mint (which can’t do anything right) will simply destroy the nation’s megolithic, monopolistic insurance companies in record time. Gub’mint is wholly incompetent, but super-efficient private enterprise health insurance doesn’t stand a ghost of a chance. Sounds logical!

Well, well, well, what does NOAA have to say about June global temps?

“The combined global land and ocean temperature for June 2009 was the second warmest on record behind [the record breaking] 2005…”

“Separately, the global ocean surface temperature for June 2009 was the warmest on record”…for both hemispheres.

“The global land surface temperature for June 2009…ranked as the sixth warmest June on record.”

Amazingly, NOAA isn’t looking at MN temps only!! Or at land temps only! And they aren’t concluding that we’re having “record cold!” globally!! How can this possibly be, given it was 45 degrees this morning in Hibbing!? And 23 degrees in 2Dim’s Big Lake pup tent! More gub’mint LIES, obviously!

Get a “Blue Ribbon” GW panel, with 6DJ’s barber on it! That’s what we need! He’s a skeptic and the climate scientists won’t debate him!! Or 6DJ’s auto mechanic, either! Or his stock picker! The cowards!

Of course the NOAA bureaucrats are likely “seeking funding”, so of course they HAVE to say that the entire globe is (still) warming or they won’t have their gub’mint jobs, right, 6th Grade Jim? Right, 2DimmestBulbinMN? Right, Sh*twatcher Cash? You betcha!!

parthian says:

July 19th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

And Col Klink will be against whatever health care reform bill is presented, whenever it’s presented, any time it’s presented, if it would actually accomplish anything.

That’s what being a Do-Nothing, Brain-Dead conservative Repub is all about. Any BQ wingnut cretin could do Col Klink’s job admirably—from Invisible-Hand Cash to 2Dimmest. No brains are required to do nothing, as Col Klink is well aware.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 19th, 2009 at 9:09 pm

“Yeah, a public option by the incompetent federal gub’mint (which can’t do anything right) will simply destroy the nation’s megolithic, monopolistic insurance companies in record time. Gub’mint is wholly incompetent, but super-efficient private enterprise health insurance doesn’t stand a ghost of a chance. Sounds logical!”

Parth,

What makes you believe that super-efficient, megolithic, monopolistic “Big Gub’mint” can a better job?

Cash N. Carey says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:42 pm

sarge states: “You can’t even tell me what the “presdiential approval index” is, but I’m supposed believe you on this?”

Actually sarge, I am not sure what a “presdiental” is. I do know what the “presidential approval index” measures. I do not try to educate the libs on the basics. They should be able to google it if they really care.

If the private industry is already on board the “green” wagon, why would we need a carbon tax? Why do we need CAFE standards?

A 1997 study by the U.S. Department of Energy found that no renewable energy
source could compete with natural
gas turbine technology. Gas generation costs about 3 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh).
Renewable energy costs, however, include
numerous government subsidies. These hide the true cost of generating electricity from those sources. Even with these subsidies, renewable energy costs at least 66% more than natural gas.

Of course private industry is always willing to help take government money. Why are we giving it to them?

Cash N. Carey says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

parth – You make me laugh. I have never met anyone who is so consumed with arguing with “brain dead” conservatives.

Thanks for the namecalling. It reinforces that the libs don’t have any facts, only emotion, on their side.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

Even the dem governors are against the Obama experiment with our health care.

http://tinyurl.com/nh9klv

‘The governors said in interviews and public sessions that the bills being drafted in Congress would not do enough to curb the growth in health spending. And they said they were convinced that a major expansion of Medicaid would leave them with heavy costs.

They are already anticipating large gaps in Medicaid financing after 2010, when stimulus money dries up. And they pointed out that Medicaid already suffered from low payment rates to health care providers, discouraging some doctors and hospitals from accepting beneficiaries. If Medicaid is expanded, states will almost surely have to increase payments to doctors to encourage more of them to participate.

Gov. Phil Bredesen of Tennessee, a Democrat, said he feared Congress was about to bestow “the mother of all unfunded mandates.” ‘

6th district Jim says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

Hey, poor crabby Parth is back.
And look, he’s off NASA and onto the NOAA.
And he loves his Govt data, if it supports his position.
CBO?
How have they done on deficit predictions?
Our great admin: did it keep unemployment below 8.5%?
But, of course, the NOAA, coagulating decades of widely varying data points–this is the agency on “fire!” sayeth the Parth. Figuratively, I mean, not like NASA that literally–Ewww, never mind.
And look, unlike pharma or evil doctors, money means nothing to them.

Let’s hope they are alot smarter than NASA……..
Chicken little, Chicken little, Parth has returned.

Sadly parth, the ICCC climate conference greatly disagreed with your ilk. And at least their brochure gives names and CV’s, which is far more than the Chicken Littles of the world.
But thanks, you are always good
for a laugh or two!
The good news, I dont spend one second away from these pages fretting over climate change, unless it’s like ? Jay mentioned–global cooling.

How and where did they measure surface temps in 1911? Just wondering….. ;o)

6th district Jim says:

July 19th, 2009 at 10:58 pm

And really, now unfair, the globe is warming and the US is left out according the NOAA!
C’mon! Where is the justice.
We need to sue someone!
Paging John Edwards
Paging John Edwards

6th district Jim says:

July 19th, 2009 at 11:16 pm

CNC
parth – You make me laugh. I have never met anyone who is so consumed with arguing with “brain dead” conservatives.

Hey, Parthian makes the effort and I appreciate that. And say what you will, he IS funny with some quips.

I just dont get how they swallow the GW data as gospel, but then forget about massively erroneous govt data on deficits, GDP; gawd–they couldnt even find big groups of people during Katrina while CNN was literally showing them on TV. And dont say, Katrina “was a Republican admin,” as then I have one word on govt competence:
Waco…….

GO lonoscopy says:

July 20th, 2009 at 12:07 am

The funny thing about the Globull Warming Enthusiasts, the Gorists and the Bulbers is that they take at face value that a prolonged drought and high temperatures on the African continent should be added to the normal weather conditions in America to skew the temperatures into a higher mean temp for the planet as a whole.

(thats as A-hole)

I laugh in their general direction.

HA!

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:12 am

I do not try to educate the libs on the basics. They should be able to google it if they really care.

Oh, I already know what it is, but I wanted to hear what you believe it to be before I tore it to shreds. Since you’re not willing to cooperate, I’ll help.

The facts: It’s the difference between those who “strongly approve” and “strongly oppose” the president’s job. Currently, 31% strongly approve of Obama, and 38% strongly disapprove, for a -7.

So what does this tell us? It says that conservatives and the far left strongly disapprove of Obama. No big surprise there, is it? His approval rating is at 60%, but that’s apparently not a good enough measure for you — so let’s look at another president’s approval “index”:

Bush was at +7 briefly in 2004, but between -10 and -15 in 2005-2006. He finished 2008 with a whopping -30 presidential approval index in November 2008.

So using your logic above, and the dubious and misleading “Rassmussen Presidential Approval Index”, it’s clear that people are much less dissatisfied with Obama than they were with Bush.

parthian says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:30 am

What can one do with “conservative” white males who think that they can “debunk” actual temp data recorded by gub’mint scientists by appealing to poor gub’mint economic predictions done for budgeting purposes? Think there might be a slight difference between the two types of data, knowlege and information, 6DJ? Naw….they’re clearly equivalent!

Or one who “argues” that you shouldn’t believe NASA scientists’ temperature data because the archives folks at the agency lost the 1969 moon landing video? Yeah, of course, no rational person would believe NASA scientists after that bone-up, they have np credibility whatever!

Murica is Number One, except in space science! USA! USA! (minus NASA….and NOAA…and the entire non-military gub’mint…. and all the demonic lib’rul scientists.)

Or another irrational BQ denialist, who thinks that scientists should exclude from the global data set any symptoms that directly relate to climate change—exclude the high temps, and the whole problem goes away, GO! If we look only at cooler temp data, there’s global cooling…..this proves it!

Except the arctic has experienced the greatest relative warming of any region on earth, including Africa….must be a drought, too! Doh! Hopefully you are employed mostly in food service….

parthian says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:51 am

In the Great Depression, FDR and the Dem Congress passed numerous pieces of major economic legislation in the first 100 days of his admin, and many more in the coming months. I haven’t researched it, but undoubtedly the Do-Nothing conservatives Repubs of the 30s also claimed things were a-going “too fast!”

Repubs had the House from Jan 1994-Jan 2007. They had control of the senate during much of that time. They controlled the entire gub’mint from Jan 2003-Jan 2007.

They moved appropiately “slowly” on health care reform—they did nothing whatever. Oh, excuse me, they watched massive consolidation of the health insurance industry and did nothing, of course. Now, that industry is highly uncompetitive nationwide, with resultant high prices.

And the Repubs’ cry as reform legislation is worked on (for months) in 2009? Don’t go so fast! We can’t keep up! We can’t read the bill!

The fact is Repubs could participate in these bills if they wanted to aid the reform efforts—-but they don’t. They (as usual) want merely to obstruct and delay and block reform. Because they work for large health insurers, that’s their constituency, just as it is for many conservative Blue Dog Dems.

Repubs oppose all reform legislation in health care, because their reason for existence is protection of the status quo when it benefits the monied corporate interests. When the status quo doesn’t benefit those interests (like in financial regulation) Repubs are the first to blow it up.

Now they want delay on health care, solely to blow it up. They are quite open about their motivation. Standard operating procedure for a corrupt corporate party.

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:32 am

“What can one do with “conservative” white males who think that they can “debunk” actual temp data recorded by gub’mint scientists by appealing to poor gub’mint economic predictions done for budgeting purposes?”

Do you need to be racist to make your point Parthian?

6th district Jim says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:44 am

parthian says:
What can one do with “conservative” white males who think that they can “debunk” actual temp data recorded by gub’mint scientists by appealing to poor gub’mint economic predictions done for budgeting purposes? Think there might be a slight difference between the two types of data, knowlege and information, 6DJ? Naw….they’re clearly equivalent!

Give parth credit, he IS persistant, and that is fine. The moon video is NBD, even mildly amusing, and I dont want to be too grisly, but I doubt NASA because they incinerate their workers over very predictable/fixable problems—O-rings, foam induced holes etc.
Doesnt that give you even an iota of doubt?

And for Pete’s sake, WE BOTH FORGET THE BEST RECENT EXAMPLE–what is more predictable and monitored:
mortgages sold thru GSE’s
or
climate (and we are so good at the weather forecasts ;o) )

Which should be the easiest to monitor and predict?

After the finanical meltdown last fall, which SOME govt people had to know was coming, and said nothing, or dunces like Barney Frank who kept chirping for their solvency, why oh why wouldnt anybody HAVE doubts about these govt sponsored climate “experts.”

Say what you want about Jason Lewis, he does get some impressive MIT types (names and CV’s upfront) on who DO raise doubts about the data collection.
Parth—Why is that bad?
The NOAA is just another group that never, ever gets mildly tough questions about details. Fine, but I’ve seen how that has worked for NASA, Fannie, FEMA etc etc
Oh well, away from these pages, climate change doesnt bother me for a millisecond.
C’mon— monty, jay, adlib, tru–it cant just be me who is left jaw-dropped at our lack of govt monitoring of govt entities.?……This has to cross party lines after Fannie, but maybe I am wrong.

parthian says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:47 am

Another word that you don’t know the meaning of.

Sorry, deacon, I don’t have any interest in enlivening your boring day at the corporate cube—you are a tiresome know nothing with nothing to contribute.

Have a great day!

6th district Jim says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:50 am

Now they want delay on health care, solely to blow it up. They are quite open about their motivation. Standard operating procedure for a corrupt corporate party.

Right, like the 40% Repubs have any control. This is your guys’ baby, and it is solely theirs to pass or reject.
Nice bait and switch for the weak-kneed dems, there Parthy
here is the Guber,mint you love:

WASHINGTON (AP) – The White House is being forced to acknowledge the wide gap between its once-upbeat predictions about the economy and today’s bleak landscape.

The administration’s annual midsummer budget update is sure to show higher deficits and unemployment and slower growth than projected in President Barack Obama’s budget in February and update in May, and that could complicate his efforts to get his signature health care and global-warming proposals through Congress.

The release of the update – usually scheduled for mid-July – has been put off until the middle of next month, giving rise to speculation the White House is delaying the bad news at least until Congress leaves town on its August 7 summer recess.

The administration is pressing for votes before then on its $1 trillion health care initiative, which lawmakers are arguing over how to finance.

The White House budget director, Peter Orszag, said on Sunday that the administration believes the “chances are high” of getting a health care bill by then. But new analyses showing runaway costs are jeopardizing Senate passage.

“Instead of a dream, this routine report could be a nightmare,” Tony Fratto, a former Treasury Department official and White House spokesman under President George W. Bush, said of the delayed budget update. “There are some things that can’t be escaped.”

The administration earlier this year predicted that unemployment would peak at about 9 percent without a big stimulus package and 8 percent with one. Congress did pass a $787 billion two-year stimulus measure, yet unemployment soared to 9.5 percent in June and appears headed for double digits.

Obama’s current forecast anticipates 3.2 percent growth next year, then 4 percent or higher growth from 2011 to 2013. Private forecasts are less optimistic, especially for next year.

Any downward revision in growth or revenue projections would mean that budget deficits would be far higher than the administration is now suggesting.
etc etc etc

Gosh, tell me again parth, why should i swallow the climate data with “honesty” like this?
Or has the AP gone far right?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAA
Schadenfreude ( I’ll go parth’s way since these are ugly times for his side)

parthian says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:00 am

And now 6DJ wants to conflate earth sciences with economics.

Conservative brains simply can’t work.

parthian says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:03 am

And thanks for the (mild) concession on schadenfreude, 6DJ. You have risen in my estimation!

Have a good day.

6th district Jim says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:15 am

parthian says:
And now 6DJ wants to conflate earth sciences with economics.
And thanks

You are welcome!
Conflate? or compare? …….
Economics is far simpler than sciences, and the govt performance on the former is jaw-droppingly bad.
SO let’s give NOAA a free pass ;o)

And you are right, 2 trillion dollar budget deficits with the delays in updated (worse) forecasts do give me brain-freeze. Looks like your Dem Congress is wobbly as well……
You have a good day, too.
Golf is first, Harry Potter is second.

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:35 am

“Sorry, deacon, I don’t have any interest in enlivening your boring day at the corporate cube—you are a tiresome know nothing with nothing to contribute.”

Ill take this as a yes. Your racist feelings for white men are obvious. Thanks Parthian.

להקיא says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:50 am

Sure, the government will hire away all the insurance company bean counters for a better wage and the insurance compay execs will have to do the bean counting themselves while taking wage reductions to appease their investors.

Your health would be better served by government bean counters at that point.

I’m in the 90% who is satisfied with my health care, and suffer from a heart condition and diabetes. I see five different doctors, take eleven prescriptions, and participate in a special cardiac risk management program.

I can only recall two instances where I’ve had to deal with the insurance company bean counters, both the result of being prescribed a non-standard medication. In both cases, it was made clear that the doctor needed to provide a reason for specifying the med, and it would be covered. Add to that one problem with an insurance company CSR providing me wrong information, which required some legwork to get them to pay, and that’s the extent of my problems with the insurance companies.

Of course, the cost of insurance for a person with my condition is a huge concern, but so is receiving the same level of quality care that I get now.

If you’ve ever known anyone who receives SSI disability, you’re aware of how difficult the government makes the application process. SOP is to arbitrarily deny the application. Recommended procedure is to hire a lawyer when you begin the application process. Otherwise, the entire process can take years.

My friend applied after a major back surgery left him unable to work, and it was over two years before he received any payment.

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 10:40 am

DB, go spend time in an all-Asian country sometime. You’ll soon understand that claims of “racism” against the top dog in any culture is an absurd joke.

Following your reasoning to its logical conclusion, we should re-write the history of slavery because it’s racist against white people.

John E Iacono says:

July 20th, 2009 at 10:53 am

Redeployment of a previous post somewhere, which is on this topic:

I’ve been thinking about how to resolve the big fight over a “government option.”

I wonder if a compromise could not be reached by having the government step in as a “Major Medical” insurer. Say, any costs over $20,000 in a calendar year would be assumed by that major medical policy — just forwarded to the government by the primary insurers.
The government would not have to get involved in making medical decisions, or need a huge bureaucracy to monitor each of us.

Freed of the risk of those huge claims, the primary insurers could lower rates significantly, making both company and personal policies much more affordable. (Their underwriters would have no problem figuring out how much they could cut, and competition for a whole new market would be fierce.)

People could still choose from the whole panoply of plans out there, all with much lower monthly cost. Companies could afford to offer group health policies again.

And the insurance companies could all sink or swim depending on how well they adapt.

It would make covering chronic and pre-existing conditions much more manageable (that could be mandated).

It would cost, and need to be covered by some new revenue source — possibly an increase in the Medicare deduction (both employer and employee), but I think it would be LOT less than the 1.5 trillion over ten years now being bruited about, and would save billions in government bureaucracy.

What am I failing to consider?

John E Iacono says:

July 20th, 2009 at 11:21 am

On government programs:

Those of us who have been monitoring government programs for years look for the following usual steps:

a. Political barnstorming blasts a new program throught the council, the board, the legislature or the congress, promising to solve a common problem once and for all. Costs are projected optimistically (e.g., Medicare, Medicaid, Iraq, Afghanistan, No Child Left Behind, AFDC, Welfare to Work, and on and on).

b. The program gets off to a slow start, with promised benefits failing to materialize and costs rising beyond expectations.

c. As the program gets to full swing, and costs are far beyond projections, bureaucrats (under pressure from politicians) fence it in with more and more restrictive rules and cuts in payments. Blame is cast everywhere but on those charged with implementing it.

d. Eventually most of the cost is going to support the bureaucracy leaving the supposed beneficiaries with little or no benefits.

e. The public, seeing bloating bureaucracy and expense, and little of the promised benefits, raises an outcry against “government waste and inefficiency.”

f. Challenged by the media and politicians alike for not doing what they were supposed to do, the bureaucrats always say in their defense they they COULD do the job, but they just don’t have enough staff. They never promise to actually do it.

g. As a disgruntled public looks on, the failed program continues to be funded year after year until … lo and behold … a NEW program is proposed that promises the solve the original problem all over again.

h. The cycle begins anew. Critics are
lambasted. Promises are made. Optimistic budgets are put forth, and the new program begins, as before…

I resignedly expect any government solution to our admitted health care crisis to fare no better than any previous program.

Costs will far exceed projections. Care will be rationed and underpaid. Villains will be sought everywhere but in the government people charged with administration of the program. The best and brightest will abandon the medical professions. And it will become more and more difficult to obtain quality, timely, medical care.

And I will say: “Of course — what did we expect?”

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 11:41 am

“DB, go spend time in an all-Asian country sometime. You’ll soon understand that claims of “racism” against the top dog in any culture is an absurd joke.”

We arent in an all asian country. However, If the country is all asian how do you have a top dog if everyone is of the same race?

“DB, go spend time in an all-Asian country sometime. You’ll soon understand that claims of “racism” against the top dog in any culture is an absurd joke.”

Define racism Sgt. Are you one of those that believes you have to be in the dominant group to be a racist? Anyone familiar with this blog knows Parthian doesnt like White Men. But if it makes you feel better in some recovering republican type of way to let Parthian continually disparage white people, have at it.

להקיא says:

July 20th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Public support for President Barack Obama’s handling of healthcare reform, the pillar of his legislative agenda, has fallen below 50 percent for the first time, a Washington Post-ABC News poll released on Monday said.

Obama and his Democratic allies in Congress have run into stiff opposition this month as they try to pass legislation to restructure the $2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare industry through the creation of a government-run health insurance program.

Republicans and some fiscally conservative Democrats argue the plan, with an estimated cost of more than $1 trillion, could hurt small businesses, add to budget deficits and reduce the quality of medical care for many Americans.

Those concerns may be having an impact on the public, according to the poll, which showed 49 percent of respondents approving of Obama’s stand on the issue compared to 57 percent in April.

Those saying they disapproved rose to 44 percent from 29 percent during the same period.

Obama the Pragmatist should take this as a sign that his demands for plan by August are unrealistic.

People don’t want a plan that’s not going to be a major improvement over the current system.

להקיא says:

July 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

Mayo Clinic’s reaction to House Tri-Committee bill

Although there are some positive provisions in the current House Tri-Committee bill – including insurance for all and payment reform demonstration projects – the proposed legislation misses the opportunity to help create higher-quality, more affordable health care for patients. In fact, it will do the opposite.

In general, the proposals under discussion are not patient focused or results oriented. Lawmakers have failed to use a fundamental lever – a change in Medicare payment policy – to help drive necessary improvements in American health care. Unless legislators create payment systems that pay for good patient results at reasonable costs, the promise of transformation in American health care will wither. The real losers will be the citizens of the United States.

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

We arent in an all asian country. However, If the country is all asian how do you have a top dog if everyone is of the same race?

Define racism Sgt. Are you one of those that believes you have to be in the dominant group to be a racist? Anyone familiar with this blog knows Parthian doesnt like White Men. But if it makes you feel better in some recovering republican type of way to let Parthian continually disparage white people, have at it.

Go to Japan and try and introduce yourself to some strangers with a nice firm handshake. They wouldn’t like it very much, and some might even call you a filthy gaijan.

Now imagine a Japanese person calling you racist for avoiding shaking hands with Japanese people. That’s the absurdity of “reverse racism” you’re talking about. Outside of occasional incidents, most caucasians in the US have no idea what it’s like to be treated poorly because of your race multiple times per day, every day.

DB, are you like the Repbulicans who feel that the civil rights issue is now “resolved”, so any negative opinions of white people, in general, is racist? After all, we have “equal rights” now, so why should they be able to say something I can’t, right?

Angry White Republican Male Syndrome is really a failure to see things from other people’s perspective. You don’t need to look very far to find racist or mysongynist attitudes in every day converstaion. If you think this is B.S., just peruse some of the older BQ threads from last year, and see what our friend OT would say when he’d been tippin a few beers.

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

“Go to Japan and try and introduce yourself to some strangers with a nice firm handshake. They wouldn’t like it very much, and some might even call you a filthy gaijan.”

Like I said more than once to you in the past, what you dont know about me might fit into the grand canyon. My brother in law is Japanese. His family is from Hiroshima. Ive been to Japan.

” Outside of occasional incidents, most caucasians in the US have no idea what it’s like to be treated poorly because of your race multiple times per day, every day.”

Whats the point? Sporadic racism is still racism. Its just tollerated by people like you because youre trying really hard to forget you were once a republican. Parthian only uses the term white male in conjunction with negative comments. Thats all Im pointing out. Racism is racism.

“DB, are you like the Repbulicans who feel that the civil rights issue is now “resolved”, so any negative opinions of white people, in general, is racist?”

I dont feel its resoved at all. Any negative opinion of a person based solely on race is racist. Parthian only talks about white people when he has something negative to say. Thats racist. He uses the the term white male to add an extra level of negativity to make his point. Thats racist.

“After all, we have “equal rights” now, so why should they be able to say something I can’t, right?”

We shouldnt tollerate racism, thats what Im saying.

“Angry White Republican Male Syndrome is really a failure to see things from other people’s perspective.”

Im not angry and Im not a republican. All Im trying to say is I find it curious why self described liberals on BQ dont find it problematic for another poster to use a persons race as a negative charectoristic.

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

“DB, are you like the Repbulicans who feel that the civil rights issue is now “resolved”, so any negative opinions of white people, in general, is racist?”

What I’m thinking Sgt is that you might tolerate racism in certain instances because you feel you deserve it, for being a republican. Maybe you think people who are treated poorly and are discriminated against have earned the right to be racists themselves? Maybe you think tolerating racism means you have an extra sense of empathy other people who can’t think in the grey areas lack? Do you think people like MLK whom we discussed the other day felt that way? I don’t see why zero tolerance for racism makes me an “angry republican”. No I think what it makes me is a person who is fed up with people of all races judging each other based on race. What I’m saying Sgt. is I’m tired of the people who claim to be against racism tolerating it in some forms and not in others. After my English lesson last week I think I now understand what the word hypocrisy means.

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

DB wrote: What’s the point

Apparently it went clear over your head. I understand you’re only taking things at face value, DB. That’s admirible, and it’s also incredibly naive.

I’m saying that angry white males should spend more time trying to understand where other people are coming from, and less time feeling victimized because everyone else is getting all the attention.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:31 pm

“I’m saying that angry white males should spend more time trying to understand where other people are coming from, and less time feeling victimized because everyone else is getting all the attention.”

Should not your “other people” also;

try to understand where other people are coming from, and less time feeling victimized because everyone else is getting all the attention?

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:42 pm

“I’m tired of the people who claim to be against racism tolerating it in some forms and not in others.”

It happens when you view people as groups, and not individuals.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

Partisan’s racism against straight white males is disgusting!

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

“Apparently it went clear over your head. I understand you’re only taking things at face value, DB. That’s admirible, and it’s also incredibly naive.”

Nice Sgt. I think whats going over your head or maybe you refuse to acknowledge it, but you tolerate racism because you feel guilty. The truth is there is a difference between understanding where people are coming from and accepting their judging of people based on race because you understand their point of view.

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

D2, if there is a king racist on this blog its you. Parthian doesnt hold a candle to your racism pal.

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

Yes, CS I do.

Do you think minorities are feeling victimized? Because they complain a lot less about it than I hear white conservative males whine about how unfair things are.

SgtPendleton says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:00 pm

2Dim you need to STFU – I may not 100% agree with DB and CS, but at least they don’t make hateful and assinine racist comments about Mexicans and African AMericans like you do.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

vomit states:

“Mayo Clinic’s reaction to House Tri-Committee bill

Although there are some positive provisions in the current House Tri-Committee bill – including insurance for all and payment reform demonstration projects – the proposed legislation misses the opportunity to help create higher-quality, more affordable health care for patients. In fact, it will do the opposite.

In general, the proposals under discussion are not patient focused or results oriented. Lawmakers have failed to use a fundamental lever – a change in Medicare payment policy – to help drive necessary improvements in American health care. Unless legislators create payment systems that pay for good patient results at reasonable costs, the promise of transformation in American health care will wither. The real losers will be the citizens of the United States. ”

Thanks vomit, that was worth repeating. I don’t believe I have ever said that about vomit. Hmmm.

adlib says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

“Economics is far simpler than sciences, and the govt performance on the former is jaw-droppingly bad.”

So, 6DJ when are you going to get back into the market – Wheh the Dow reaches 10 K? Very gentlemanly of you, if so, to let the opportunists go first. Bht then, maybe you’ll not see the signs of recovery any better than you recognizae climate change.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:32 pm

Two posts eaten in a row. Isn’t that interesting….

sarge appears to want to compare Bush against Obama.

He states: “So what does this tell us? It says that conservatives and the far left strongly disapprove of Obama. No big surprise there, is it? His approval rating is at 60%, but that’s apparently not a good enough measure for you — so let’s look at another president’s approval “index”:

Bush was at +7 briefly in 2004, but between -10 and -15 in 2005-2006. He finished 2008 with a whopping -30 presidential approval index in November 2008.

So using your logic above, and the dubious and misleading “Rassmussen Presidential Approval Index”, it’s clear that people are much less dissatisfied with Obama than they were with Bush. ”

Actually sarge if you want to compare the two, you do need to measure at the same point. It would be similar to comparing the time of a 100 meter run against that of a 1600 meter run. You can compare them but it is meaningless.

Here is what the USA Today/Gallup poll states about Obama: “His overall approval rating was 55%, the lowest of his young presidency. That puts Obama 10th among the 12 post-World War II presidents at this point in their tenures.”

http://tinyurl.com/lq8hwh

Cash N. Carey says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

sarge, Obama is actually losing substantial support from independents.

According to last week’s CNN poll, Obama had a 57 percent approval rating. Now how would that compare to George W. Bush 6 months into his term.

Ahh, Bush had an identical 57 percent approval rating.

It appears that the libs now have their very own George W. Obama to try to defend for 3.5 years. This is going to be fun!

Deacon Blues says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

“I may not 100% agree with DB”

75%, tops.

Think of what you’re saying.
You can get it wrong and still you think that it’s all right.
Think of what I’m saying,
We can work it out and get it straight, or say good night.

Cash N. Carey says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

Or we could use President Clinton’s pollster for a source. Douglas Schoen stated: “Polling data show that Mr. Obama’s approval rating is dropping and is below where George W. Bush was in an analogous period in 2001.”

I am glad that you find polling data so interesting sarge. I was beginning to think you didn’t appreciate data.

By the way, Obama’s presidential approval index is -7 today.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

You know I want to see some “safety net” with health insurance. Something people can count on in an emergency. But I don’t think this is it.

I guess its like the Bushs private retirement thing. Those that where the loudest on that should be the loudest on this too. ITS A BIG DEAL with consequences we are not sure of.

And when you really break down the uninsured its not the figure you hear thrown around.

So lets relax see where the economy is next year.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

“Do you think minorities are feeling victimized? Because they complain a lot less about it than I hear white conservative males whine about how unfair things are.”

I think that anyone, regardless of race, who feels that they are a victim, is wallowing in the slop of self-pity.

Especially in this country.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:51 pm

“but at least they don’t make hateful and assinine racist comments about Mexicans and African AMericans like you do.”

Sarge,

You are full of liberal crap. Just because I’m against illegal immigration, it doesn’t mean I have anything against Mexicans. I have a few Mexican American friends, have been to Mexico a few times and relly enjoyed the people there, and have personally heard Mexican Americans speak out against illegal immigration.

The same goes for black people. I went goose hunting in Manatoba a few years ago with some friends of mine including an African American, and we had a blast. I really enjoyed being with my friend George.

I judge people by their actions Sarge, not their skin color, and liberals like you who falsely call me a racist simply because I’m against illegal immigration and am critical of a soci@list President make me sick.

Parsisan on the other hand has a strong hatred for white males, and everyone who frequents this blog has witnessed this.

dare2sayit.com says:

July 20th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

“You know I want to see some “safety net” with health insurance. Something people can count on in an emergency. But I don’t think this is it.”

I agree. The first things we need to do though is stop the frivolous lawsuits as well as making sure illegal aliens won’t be able to cash in on this, but the liberal democrats are totally against that.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:04 pm

If you know anything about Johnson he did the same thing in 1964. The bills and the spending where hitting his desk faster then he could sign them. We where also about to enter a new phase of escalation in Vietnam.

None of us are sure where this Aphgan thing is going to go.

So all you “repeaters of history” that I heard yelling and screaming the last 8 years should be doing the same now.

Unless of course its the letter behind Obamas name that keeps you people silent.

CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

“repeaters of history”

Did you see how much of the “stimulus” we’re spending on Ham and cheese?

It would be better spent on teaching people to hunt, fish, and garden.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 20th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

And I heard plenty of whining the last 8 years about deficits and or childrens, children and on and on ( rightfully so ). Yet the people with D’s after their names and supports of people with D’s after names now seem to be blind to it.

This BS politics has to stop.. And the only way to do it is be honest with yourself. Stop with the Rush and MSNBC and stop with the baloney BS and elect some damn adults to our government.

adlib says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:16 pm

DB said: “What I’m saying Sgt. is I’m tired of the people who claim to be against racism tolerating it in some forms and not in others.”

As Cool Hand Luke said “What we have here…is a failure to communicate.”

There was an incident in the news in the last week about a public swimming pool that ejected every black kid at the pool at the time. Actionable racism? Well some of the kids whose rights were violated certainly experienced it that way. Maybe they were actually trying to play by the house rules and a critical mass of their “peers” were percieved as out of control by the ones in charge of public safety.

What constitutes fun depends on what one brings to the party. But if one group of acceptably behaved bathers feels threatened by another group taking over the scene they’ll leave or else there will be trouble in one form or another. Maybe the overseers preferred the pool to be populated entirely by kids they could control versus entirely by those they couldn’t. And maybe some kids’ belligerance hid a lot of insecurities.

Anyway, “blessed are the peacemakers…” THE BIBLE

adlib says:

July 20th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

JEL says “…any costs over $20,000 in a calendar year would be assumed by that major medical policy — just forwarded to the government by the primary insurers.

This idea is essentially the same as “re-insurance” or a risk pool shared by a number of companies collaborating as secondary market for risks too big for any one of them to insure alone. It has some merit.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:07 am

CNC, it’s inaccurate to compare the relatively healthy economy that Bush was given to the steaming plateful of excrement that was handed to Obama. Unemployment was less than 4% when Bush got in, and he had a strong and healthy (appearing) banking industry. Looks like the good ol days, don’t it?

But yeah, I like data CNC. I especially like debunking when people use it inaccurately like you do.

Yes, Obama’s numbers are dropping. Clearly the honeymoon is over. But he’s got a lot of work ahead of him if he’s going to reach the dismal performance of Bush; who’s approval rating fell a whopping 60 points from its peak in September 2001, which no one is likely to top ever.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:14 am

D2 you are by far the most prejudiced poster here — what’s telling is that you don’t even realize when you’re doing it.

You see a crime story in the paper in which the perp is has a latin name – you automatically assume they’re here illegally — you’ve been warned about doing that crap a number of times.

You also whine about “all the black people” coming up here from Chicago to get on welfare. And that’s not even addressing all the B.S. you’ve put out there about Somalis.

You think because you know a couple of people of color that means you’re not racist? That’s the standard excuse, isn’t it? “Well, I’ve met some black people once and we were polite to each other, so how can you accuse me of being racist?”

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:22 am

CS, the ham and cheese is stimulus — I find it funny that the GOP is all over this. Drudge went nuts about these things before doing a reality check — he thought he had the big scoop with 2 lbs of ham for $1 million (it was actually $1 million of ham in 2 lb packages).

So the money when to local, American producers of ham and cheese (i.e. business). Where it got turned into payroll for workers, or maybe a capital investment — or even profit for the owners. That money in turn would have been spent on investments and/or goods and services…and so on…It’s the multiplier effect, and that was the whole point of the stimulus package — spend money.

P.S. Adlib, THANK YOU for using the word “actionable” correctly.

P.P.S. Tiny, while there are some similarities between Obama and Johnson, my own personal belief is that it’s not enough to warrant history repeating itself. The Afghanistan/Vietnam comparision is especially inaccurate.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:25 am

…and here’s yet another fine example of what happens when you let industry run government:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/technology/21distracted.html?_r=2&hp

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:30 am

“14 die as Taliban bombers attack 2 Afghan cities”

Guys isn’t the “Obama Aphgan escalation” creating more violence and recruiting more terrorists?

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:36 am

“and here’s yet another fine example of what happens when you let industry run government”

The relationship between the two should be more symbiotic and less parasitic.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:42 am

SgtPendleton says:
July 21st, 2009 at 6:07 am
CNC, it’s inaccurate to compare the relatively healthy economy that Bush was given to the steaming plateful of excrement that was handed to Obama. Unemployment was less than 4% when Bush got in, and he had a strong and healthy (appearing) banking industry. Looks like the good ol days, don’t it?

C’mon Sarge, what a canard!
Dont rip on D2 when you are peddling claims like these = does NOT help your position.

W stepped into a mess of epic proportions, with the existing corporate accting fraud (which was a “meager” 1-2 trillion by today’s effedup standards) that flourished under “see no evil” admin of Clinton.
Healthsouth started it in 1996, and
feel free to google and relive a few of the big star names: exxon, worldcom, adelphia, global crossing, global star, aol, Tyco etc etc
Fannie was up to its “tricks” even then, but its huge accting scandal didnt get the headlines ’til 2004……
but the timebomb was ticking even then.
Yes, those great Clinton years :o )

W was left to clean up this Clintonian mess, as the fraud popped the internet bubble and the economy reeled into recession.
Yet, common sense economic policy–tax cuts which combined with war– helped pull the economy out of that horrible episode.

Both W and Obama stepped into messes, but only 1 came into it as a true Washington outsider–W.
Obama was part of a majority Congress that passed budgets in 2007 and 2008, so he can look in the mirror when wondering why things are so bad in the here and now.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:46 am

“Parsisan on the other hand has a strong hatred for white males..”

Coffee out of the nose on that one.

SgtP, did the pollwatcher ever reply when you asked what Bush’s approval index was? Of course, he wouldn’t want any comparison.

What was Bush’s approval index when he left office, Pollwatcher?

So the pollwatcher says that Obama and Bush’s approval ratings are the same at this point in their presidency so that must mean that their approval index is also the same.

Pollwatcher must be so pleased when Obama’s index upticks and depressed when it downticks. Those must be the days he doesn’t post it.

What an emotional rollercoaster you’ll be on over the next 3.5 years.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:48 am

And let me add to yesterday’s list of the great government agencies—NASA, Fannie/Freddie, FEMA ,CBO etc that are “stars” of performance.
I forgot how much the people like Parth “love” that lying CIA!

Really, the only government group our lefties love and want NO discussion/review about:
our climatologists and their doomsday claims. Isnt that odd?

You cant make this stuff up!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:52 am

“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions. …W was left to clean up this Clintonian mess…and the economy reeled into recession.”

There’s no responding to abject lunacy such as this.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:56 am

“There’s no responding to abject lunacy such as this.”

I think you just did.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:03 am

There are a few questions I’d like answered before I would jump on board for this health care.

At what level currently does the government provide health care for the needy. NOTE this is not a degrading question but an important one.

I would assume a single mother on Welfare along with her children are covered.

How many of the uninsured are

Rich people who just don’t buy it.
Non Citizens of the US
Young people who can afford private insurance but just don’t get it

Also its my understand in this country YOU CAN NOT BE REFUSED TREATMENT and a payment as little as 20$ a month is needed if you are in the low income range

I.E. If I had no insurance and a 99% clogged artery they could not refuse to treat me last fall.

monty says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:04 am

6DJ writes:
“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions”

Wow. The economy was humming, the federal budget was running a SURPLUS, and that, to Jim, is a mess, of “epic proportions”. I remember W telling the american public that he advocated the tax rebates because the federal government was in the black and “it’s your money”.
How one can compare the situations W and O walked into is beyond me. Jim, stay away from the cool aid, mon.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:06 am

s isn’t the “Obama Aphgan escalation” creating more violence and recruiting more terrorists?

That’s an excellent question Tiny. More terrorists? No. More Taliban? Maybe.

In simple terms, Iraqis are Arabs, and the Afghans are not. The invasion of Iraq was seen as the invasion of an Arab nation — so lots of Arabs came to Iraq to fight the infidels. Afghanistan on the other hand isn’t Arab – while the Taliban did support and protect al-Queda it’s not a part of greater “Arabia” like Iraq is.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:07 am

Dora I was a Lifelong Democrat when Clinton left office. The Technology bubble was over and the economy was in decline. Thats fact!

Stop your Bull Sh^t here and get over to the Huffington Post and blog with the idiots over there.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:10 am

Jim, I won’t debate you on the degree to which our current mess can be blamed on Clinton – but I’d like to point out that no one knew in 2001 what kind of a mess had been created. CNC compared Obama’s set of problems to those on W’s plate in July 2001 — that was a different world than where we are today — that’s m y point.

parthian says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:10 am

The Repubs corporate masters counsel “delay” on health care reform because they much prefer the status quo, which has been quite profitable to the nation’s giant health insurers with their anti-competitive markets.

The insurers’ servile puppets—the Repubs themselves—want delay mainly for political purposes. As Repub senator DuhMint (R-SC) quite candidly explained to a wingnut audience, the political goal in defeating health care reform is to make it Obama’s “Waterloo” and “break Obama” for good.

This 6 months into a new administration during the Great Recession—there’s our patriotic conservative movement! Makes the Pollwatching Cash’s eyes tear up in jingoist pride!

While health care reform has loads of pesky details, only a few avenues for major reform exist, and they have long been discussed in DC—almost 20 years of “discussing” now.

1. You can scrap the worthless for-profit middlemen insurers, and go with a single gub’mint payer, taking health care out of the capitalist exploitation arena. Massive cost savings, universal coverage, takes employer cost out of the picture—win, win, win.

2. You can create a public health insurance option to act as a substantial check on the monopolist/oligopolist private insurers and rein in their large profits at the expense of their insureds.

3. You can shore up the employer-provided private health care scheme, which “system” we stumbled into during WWII and haven’t done anything about for 60+ years and which covered naysayers (who don’t want to risk their personal set-up) support.

Obviously option one was the clearly preferable first world nation approach, so in backwards, reactionary, braindead conservative Murica, that option wasn’t even on the table and was declared DOA “soc*alism” by our corporate press, right-wing 24/7 Noise Machine and foaming at the mouth conservative lunatics and GOoPer clowns.

That leaves options 2 and 3, which the House Bill opts to try to implement.

There will be some sort of public option in the bill, the only question is will it be effective, or will it be DOA as the private insurers want to ensure. One can’t tell at this stage, it will be up to the Blue Dogs and the battle of the airwaves.

Repubs have moved to scaring people about the “unaffordable!” cost of reform, despite the latest CBO conclusion that the House bill will not add to the deficit with its mix of cost savings and tax increases on the super rich.

There is no Repub health care reform bill in either house of Congress. That’s their “answer” to the health care debate. The Party of Do Nothing and monied interest protection. Crying about “movin’ too fast!” with no attempt at dealing with the problem at all—that’s “conservatism”!

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:12 am

I.E. If I had no insurance and a 99% clogged artery they could not refuse to treat me last fall.

Tiny that’s part of the problem. We don’t refuse people, and so those cost of treating those people need to be made up somewhere else – so you and I end up spending a lot more for our insurance (and treatment).

I thought you were doing really well today until you began your verbal assault on Dora. Is that really neccessary?

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:16 am

there you go again tiny. I didn’t say that there wasn’t a technology bubble that burst. Keep your strawman sh1t out of my field.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:21 am

“More terrorists? No. More Taliban? Maybe”

Id call them the same thing. I think we had this discussion before?

Even though you consider that in someplaces, hardly any at all really, some people may want the Taliban to have power or representation in the Afghan govt, I dont think you can call a group of people who use fear of death (terror) to recruit 1 male from each family or financial assistance (extortion) legitimate. The acid in school girls faces is a nice touch too.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:21 am

Dora says:
July 21st, 2009 at 8:52 am
“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions. …W was left to clean up this Clintonian mess…and the economy reeled into recession.”
Monty:
How one can compare the situations W and O walked into is beyond me. Jim, stay away from the cool aid, mon.

Jim says:
Well, this IS why the BQ is down to 10 people, and half of them really arent adding much.
You guys do realize W ran up deficits of 5 trillion in just 8 years? That is no “nothing” accord to resident geniuses Dora and Monty.
Oh vey!!!

Please do tell Dora, Monty:
there was no recession in 2/2001?
Clinton did leave in late 1/01, right?

There was no tyco, wcom, exxon, healthsouth?
Fannie didnt go thru a huge scandal in 2004 that dated well back in years?

There was no 911, and subsequent war?

Please, explain where I am wrong–
I give names, dates, places all easily fact checked,
Dora and Monty give literally, nothing but their a vacuous, stupid answer.

Now, I know Dora is stupid based on the lack of truth comission, the war surge etc, but Monty, you do seem to have good posts–please tell which facts above I am in error…..do tell!
Recession?
Accting scandal?
Fannie?
5 trillion?
:o )

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:23 am

Thanks vomit, that was worth repeating. I don’t believe I have ever said that about vomit.

If you’ve never had vomit worth repeating, then you don’t know how to party.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:24 am

“I thought you were doing really well today until you began your verbal assault on Dora. Is that really necessary?”

Yes because she is a mimicker minus any god damn original thought and always towing the party line.

This is discussion board. BushCo RaygunCo Strawman….come on.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:24 am

“1. You can scrap the worthless for-profit middlemen insurers, and go with a single gub’mint payer, taking health care out of the capitalist exploitation arena. Massive cost savings, universal coverage, takes employer cost out of the picture—win, win, win.”

A perfect solution. If you like hearing half the story.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:25 am

And parth, dont despair:
250 some Dems in House
60 Senators
and a Dem President

The Dems can pass any old health bill that the Dems want–
no filibusters
no problem
Whatever that majority party wants, they can do……
Of course, Monty and Dora will now explain that my House and Senate counts are wrong too.
Never let facts stand in the way of partisan politics!
;o)

parthian says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:33 am

“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions”

How utterly absurd. Cheney took control of a largely solvent federal government running record surpluses, as a mild financial deregulation recession got underway. A crises go, it was small potatoes.

He used the “opportunity” to destroy the solvency of the federal government by a massive $2 trillion package of tax cuts for he rich, while his crony Greenspan lowered interest rates to comic levels to fuel an even larger credit/debt expansion, which ultimately popped and whose ruins we are trapped in now.

There was massive corporate accounting fraud and there were even some (not many) prosecutions(!), but this lack of oversight was just another legacy of our deregulating fever, which Clinton participated in to some degree, and for which history will harshly judge him. Certainly Bushco did not ramp up corporate “oversight” and advocate for greater financial regulation. It was all part of the ethos of the failed Conservative Era, which the nation is now struggling to get beyond.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:34 am

monty says:
6DJ writes:
“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions”
Wow. The economy was humming, the federal budget was running a SURPLUS, and that, to Jim, is a mess, of “epic proportions”.

Again, never let facts stand in the way of one’s argument, that should be renamed–the Dora principle (or in her honor for her obvious brilliance, the Dora Principal,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA)
Yes, that economy was HUMMING!
And when did Clinton leave office, was that also 2001? Anybody with half a brain (raise hand now) would also realize if the accting scandals had come to light in 1999 or 2000, the recession would have been easily in mid-2000 BTW.

The NBER’s Business Cycle Dating Committee has determined that a peak in business activity occurred in the U.S. economy in March 2001. A peak marks the end of an expansion and the beginning of a recession. The determination of a peak date in March is thus a determination that the expansion that began in March 1991 ended in March 2001 and a recession began.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:35 am

6Dim, with Congress and the WH in Republican control for 6 years, what did they do to “clean up” Fannie/Freddie mess?

If W inherited an economic mess of epic proportions from Clinton what did he do the first 9 months he was in office to “fix” it?

And of course Bush’s deficit was from war spending not because he was trying to “fix” the economy.

And you want to equate the economy that W inherited to the economy that Obama inherited.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:36 am

yes SgtP, it is necessary for him because he’s a misogynist.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:40 am

Parthian:
There was massive corporate accounting fraud and there were even some (not many) prosecutions(!), but this lack of oversight was just another legacy of our deregulating fever, which Clinton participated in to some degree, and for which history will harshly judge him.

Gosh, And look who admits what went on back then.
I may have to faint! And SALUTE!
Clinton left office–1/20/2001
Recession is here 3/2001
Years of hidden corporate fraud = recession delayed ONLY because the internet bubble didnt POP sooner!
And 2 trillion in cuts doesnt = 5 trillion in deficits, much of it was loss of corporate and personal income taxes.
Or as Dora and Monty call it, EASY STREET!
GAWD,
How lame has the BQ become?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
have a good day one and all!

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:42 am

Half brain 6Dim, Bush / Cheney were hoping to run out the clock before the economy collapsed so that it could be blamed on the next administration which was clear was going to be a Democrat since the animosity toward Republican’s was so high.

And of course the half brains like you would have lapped that up.

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:42 am

Gosh Dora, doesnt war spending stimulate the economy?
Econ 101.
Oh well, cant take this kindergarDen level of debate.
When Parth and I semi-agree, need to go golf, since it may be one of the signs of the apocalypse!

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:44 am

Id call them the same thing. I think we had this discussion before?

Yes. The Taliban are terrorists by definition, but they’re not trying to detonate a nuclear bomb in the US. They’re focused on the region, and they don’t rouse feelings of pan-Arabism like our invovlement in Iraq did; oh, and since we don’t have West Virginia Army Reservists running prison camps, there’s hasn’t been any Abu-Gahraib scandals either.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:44 am

And I don’t think its Rightwing propaganda to sate that government run health care in other countries doesn’t work. Its fact. This country has the best healthcare in the world.

So why not real reform and not this government option.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:45 am

Oh, I see 6Dim, the Iraq War was W’s economic stimulus package. THAT’s why he went to war, eh? OMG. How absurd can you possibly get?!?

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:49 am

“And I don’t think its Rightwing propaganda to sate that government run health care in other countries doesn’t work”

And you think you don’t tow the party line.

“This country has the best healthcare in the world.”

You need to look at the health indices to know that we are not the best in the world.

monty says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:58 am

Poor Jim. He’s swallowed the latest neocon revision of recent history hook, line amd sinker. We havn’t heard this latest line of BS ’til now, Jim. Where’d ya get it from? I wonder…..
Yup, there was a recession in 2001. Remember those tax rebates I “vacuously” mentioned above? The reasoning at the time went from “we’re running a surplus, it’s your money” to “we’re heading into a recession, we want you to spend money”. Remember? So, if things were sooooo godawfully bleak economically when W came in, what was with those rebates, Jim? Why propose a tax rebate, since the government was running a surplus, if things were obviously so bad? Things really wern’t all that bad, were they, Jim? C’mon, you can say it. Now, from this one could argue that the W administration was asleep at the switch and totally misread the economy, but that’s not my point. Things were downright peachy when W came in compared to when O came in. You need to get off the cool aid, Jim.
“Never let facts stand in the way of partisan politics!”
In the Age of Disinformation, one persons fact is another persons lie. Depends on the color of glasses you have on at the time.

parthian says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:58 am

“I don’t think its rightwing propaganda to state that government run health care in other countries doesn’t work”

Yes, it is.

It’s a rightwing lie spread 24/7 by our corporate press and conservative noise machine, and you eat it up.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:59 am

Sgt. As long as we can agree they have no legitimacy and are some nasty guys, Im fine with what youre saying. I understand the difference between the Iraqi insurgents, their goals and tactics and what the Taliban is doing. They are obviously a different breed, and we can thank the GWB admin for bluring the line. However, the Taliban is a collection of homocidal thugs.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:04 am

We don’t have the best healthcare in the world. Health care is what — like 15% of GDP? Basically Tiny we spend a lot more to cover fewer people than any other industrialized country.

The quality of some care is among the best — like specialty care. My son’s surgery last fall — done by a world-renouned expert in the field. Not likely that would have happened if we lived in France — but looking at the big picture, they do a better job of providing care than we do.

Same is true for first reponders and emergency care – we really value the life of the individual, so we’ve priortized that more than other countries (yet another great thing about America).

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:05 am

“Yes, it is.”

My in laws are from Canada. The system works, but it isnt without its hickups and problems. Its left wing propoganda to claim its a win win win situation with no flaws. You have to give to get. In other words there is no free lunch or health care in this example.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:07 am

“Yes, it is.”

My in laws are from Canada.”

Oh my Butt hole lives in Britain. God almighty !

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:08 am

“Not likely that would have happened if we lived in France — but looking at the big picture, they do a better job of providing care than we do.”

…to everyone cheaper. But it is slower and you have to make choices about what will and wont be done and when.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:10 am

“This country has the best healthcare in the world.”

I know Mark people from around the world going to Canada and Cuba instead of coming here for their health treatment…I know..you’re right!

The next hearth attack I have I’m heading to the boarder.

Say its the Best health care in the world is now a party line…unbelievable!

monty says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:10 am

“Gosh Dora, doesnt war spending stimulate the economy?
Econ 101.”

Unless, of course, you are massively cutting taxes at the same time. Can you name any other administration that enacted several rounds of taxes cuts and fought a war, on two fronts, no less, simultaneously? I didn’t think so. And do you know why? ‘Cause it’s really, really bad economic policy. Econ 101, indeed.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:11 am

However, the Taliban is a collection of homocidal thugs.

It’s infinately more complex than that DB…Yes, I think we should be opposed to them completely and aggressively try to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan.

But about “homocidal thugs” — do you know what the difference is between a war criminal and a war hero?

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am

Sgt. feel free to call me a republican if you want to, and this isnt my only point on the issue of cost, but another problem making the number 15% of GDP is the fact that doctors will run every single concievable test to diagnose an ailment for fear of missing somthing and being sued. Its not the whole issue like D2 or others claim it is, but its a part of the problem. Americans are litigious and it leads to more expensive health care.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:17 am

“It’s infinately more complex than that DB”

Not much. Burning schools down doesnt have a silver lining.

“But about “homocidal thugs” — do you know what the difference is between a war criminal and a war hero?”

Perspective?

The majority of people in Afghanistan dont appreciate the Taliban.

“Yes, I think we should be opposed to them completely and aggressively try to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan.”

More education and building, fewer droans dropping bombs.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:17 am

I guess I must be the exception because after 40 years of health problems from chronic back and next pain to kidney stones to a hearth attack I’ve had ZERO problems with any of my care or any insurance company…ZERO!

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:22 am

Tiny,

Some of your spelling mistakes are clasic.

“I know Mark people from around the world going to Canada and Cuba instead of coming here for their health treatment…I know..you’re right!”

read it again Tiny, I said the people I know from Canada arent in love with their win win win system of health care.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 10:54 am

“Some of your spelling mistakes are clasic.”

And known by many more then a few. It has improved much since I started posting a few years ago.

I COULD NOT spell many of the words I had to give to my son when he was in grade school.

Not a great enhance on spelling in the 70′s.

In my community College days before computers and spell check it would take me hours and hours to recheck all the spelling. The simplest words seem to be the hardest.

But I can assure you the spelling is NO indication of my intelligence level.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:15 am

OBAMA ADMITS: ‘NOT FAMILIAR’ WITH HOUSE BILL…

Audio… White House misses deadline on spending cuts report…

delays Guantanamo report…

UPDATE: Administration Delays Key Budget Report…

Don’t attack the “headlines” defend the policy.

Is this Transparency?

If this was Bush?

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:22 am

Not much. Burning schools down doesnt have a silver lining.

The majority of people in Afghanistan dont appreciate the Taliban.

The majority of people in Afghanistan live in small villages who just want to feed their families safely, and they’ll align themselves with whomever can provide that.

Let me ask you this: what do we do with a girls school in which the director and the head of the village made a deal with the Taliban to let them store weapons in his town in exchange for keeping the girls school open?

Are the school director and the elder members of the Taliban? Should they be taken prisoner? Is the village a legitimate military target?

That’s complicated – not a simple matter of bad guys burning down a school.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:22 am

“…but it isnt without its hickups and problems. Its left wing propoganda to claim its a win win win situation with no flaws”.

Well since nobody has claimed it doesn’t have flaws (what “system” doesn’t have flaws, including capitalism) you’re tilting at windmills.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:23 am

Yes tiny, you are an exception.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:24 am

“But I can assure you the spelling is NO indication of my intelligence level.”

Ever see Urban Cowboy?

All cowboys ain’t dumb. Some of ‘em got smarts real good, like me.

-Bud

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:30 am

“Well since nobody has claimed it doesn’t have flaws (what “system” doesn’t have flaws, including capitalism) you’re tilting at windmills.”

You sure about that? Win Win Win….

“1. You can scrap the worthless for-profit middlemen insurers, and go with a single gub’mint payer, taking health care out of the capitalist exploitation arena. Massive cost savings, universal coverage, takes employer cost out of the picture—win, win, win….

…. Obviously option one was the clearly preferable first world nation approach”

What do you think Parthian was trying to say when he said win win win? Not everyone wins in a single payer first world nation approach.

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:37 am

Well since nobody has claimed it doesn’t have flaws (what “system” doesn’t have flaws, including capitalism) you’re tilting at windmills.

The argument is not whether the proposed reforms are flawed, it’s whether the new system is any better than the old system.

I’m especially interested in your take on the Mayo Clinic’s assessment that I posted above.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:46 am

“The majority of people in Afghanistan live in small villages who just want to feed their families safely, and they’ll align themselves with whomever can provide that.”

This is true. They are also like most people who when confronted with joining the Taliban or dying, they choose to join. I know of people who have gotten up in the morning with warnings from the Taliban nailed to their door.

“That’s complicated – not a simple matter of bad guys burning down a school”

Is this a hypothetical or did this actually happen? Anyway, Im sure it wasnt an agreement with a balanced give and take. The Taliban is holding people hostage.

What are you trying to say about the Taliban Sgt? The people in Afghanistan have been living with war for over 30 years and the Taliban is taking advantage of a generation of people who know nothing but fear. Winning hearts and minds isnt as simple as it sounds. I dont think targeting a school or mosque because the Taliban is extorting the village is a legitimate way to achieve any goals we’ve set there.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:51 am

“Yes tiny, you are an exception.”

Maybe because I don’t bitch and complain if I can get in the office in 5 minutes.

Never had a problem with one doctor, one pharmacists or any insurance person.

I’ve seen some people and they act like somehow they are the most important person that doctor will ever see, bitchin’ and complaining and yelling and screaming.

You have problems at the doctors office Dora?

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:55 am

“Yes tiny, you are an exception.”

70% have insurance and 30% dont. We should try and do what we can to cover the 30% with no coverage but lets be honest about who the exception is.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 12:01 pm

30%

How many of that 30% are the filthy rich?
How many are people who can afford but roll the dice?
How many are young people ages 18-25 who can afford?

All is said and done I bet that gets cut in half, 15-10%

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 12:05 pm

Maybe because I don’t bitch and complain if I can get in the office in 5 minutes.

I don’t think Dora’s exception comment was health care related.

It was a sarcastic response to,

“But I can assure you the spelling is NO indication of my intelligence level.”

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 12:26 pm

Is this a hypothetical or did this actually happen? Anyway, Im sure it wasnt an agreement with a balanced give and take. The Taliban is holding people hostage.

It’s real — it was in a report this weekend on NPR, because the school was founded by the mother of a 9/11 victim. Still looking for a link.

I’m just trying to make the point that it’s not a simple as “kill the Taliban” because there are lots of grey areas over there.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 12:50 pm

“I’m just trying to make the point that it’s not a simple as “kill the Taliban” because there are lots of grey areas over there.”

The Taliban isnt the headmasters of schools and scared villagers. I think you can try and remove the Taliban without dropping bombs on villages.

parthian says:

July 21st, 2009 at 1:39 pm

“what do you think parthian was trying to say…?”

You might try reading the sentence to figure it out. Seems like only you have hit upon your unreasonable and bizarre interpretation of it—but mischaracterization apparently “worked” for you in your high school debate days.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 1:44 pm

“Maybe because I don’t bitch and complain if I can get in the office in 5 minutes.”

“I don’t think Dora’s exception comment was health care related.”

Well expect for this one time when I went to a see a Dr Goldstein in St. Louis Park.

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 1:52 pm

“You might try reading the sentence to figure it out. Seems like only you have hit upon your unreasonable and bizarre interpretation of it—but mischaracterization apparently “worked” for you in your high school debate days.”

What were you trying to say when you said win win win? What are the downsides to a first world nation single payer system as you see it? Whats your personal experience with this type of system?

Deacon Blues says:

July 21st, 2009 at 2:10 pm

I think the real mischaracterization here Parth is when you describe single payer universal care as a win win win sitation.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 3:18 pm

“I’m especially interested in your take on the Mayo Clinic’s assessment that I posted above”

Which post is Mayo Clinic’s assessment?

“It was a sarcastic response to,

“But I can assure you the spelling is NO indication of my intelligence level.”

No, it wasn’t. it was a response to tiny saying this: “I guess I must be the exception because after 40 years of health problems from chronic back and next pain to kidney stones to a hearth attack I’ve had ZERO problems with any of my care or any insurance company…ZERO!”

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 3:25 pm

Here’s what p1sses me off – everyone agrees that we need health care reform. John Ioncono even says we need it.

So where’s the GOP on this? They say things are moving too fast? We’ve known about this problem for 15 years, and still haven’t done anything to fix it. So they’re using the issue to try and torpedo Obama politically — to make it his Waterloo, according to GOP’er Jim DeMint.

So once again – the GOP is proving itself to be Party First! 24/7 partisan warfare.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 3:37 pm

tiny thinks the problems in the health care system are because people complain about not seeing their doctor in 5 minutes.

There is no reasoning with that kind of mentality.

And he thinks he doesn’t repeat the right wing propaganda. heh.

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Which post is Mayo Clinic’s assessment?

This is Mayo’s statement that was published recently.

*Although there are some positive provisions in the current House Tri-Committee bill – including insurance for all and payment reform demonstration projects – the proposed legislation misses the opportunity to help create higher-quality, more affordable health care for patients. In fact, it will do the opposite.

In general, the proposals under discussion are not patient focused or results oriented. Lawmakers have failed to use a fundamental lever – a change in Medicare payment policy – to help drive necessary improvements in American health care. Unless legislators create payment systems that pay for good patient results at reasonable costs, the promise of transformation in American health care will wither. The real losers will be the citizens of the United States.*

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pm

So they’re using the issue to try and torpedo Obama politically — to make it his Waterloo, according to GOP’er Jim DeMint.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:08 pm

“In general…”

It’s “in general” all right. There’s not enough specificity to comment. What exactly should be included in the bill to do what they are saying? What provision(s) are they taking exception to?

“Pay for good patient results at reasonable costs” sounds great. How do they propose to operationalize that?

You got a link to something more than just that?

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:12 pm

The biggest problem in the health care system is a general lack of compassion amongst members of the medical industry.

I’m getting a prostate exam last month, so I ask my doctor if he can do me a favor and see if the remote control for my TV is up there, because it’s been missing for a week.

The heartless bastard says, “Good, it’ll do you some good to get up and change the channel”

I still can’t find the damn thing, and every time I pass gas, the Cartoon Channel comes on. The Spongebob theme will drive you crazy after a while.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:26 pm

*Thank you thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. I got a million of em*

Why do you Jews need to make a joke out of everything???

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:36 pm

“In general…”

I think their main point is that second paragraph, which is outlined in more detail in this Chicago Tribune piece.

It doesn’t sound like they see much reform in Obama’s plan.

It also mimics my admittedly selfish concerns, that the level of care I currently receive could suffer. I’ve already had, in the last two years, a few doctors of mine announce that they will no longer accept medicare.

Bending the curve on health spending
By Denis Cortese and Jeffrey Korsmo
July 19, 2009
Over the past several weeks, President Barack Obama and some congressional leaders have cited Mayo Clinic and other medical group practices as “a great value” for your health care dollar: high-quality care at costs that are significantly less than other parts of the country.

While we appreciate this recognition, we question whether our political leaders realize that many doctors and hospitals that offer this high-value care are reaching the point where we cannot afford to provide it to patients with government-sponsored insurance such as Medicare and Medicaid. We worry that the same could hold true for patients in a new government-run public insurance plan.

Despite the fact that we strive to give patients the right level of care — everything they need, no more and no less — we consistently suffer huge financial losses due to the government price-controlled Medicare payment system, which financially punishes providers who offer higher quality care at a lower cost.

Last year alone, Mayo Clinic lost hundreds of millions of dollars caring for Medicare beneficiaries — the very patients with complex, complicated illnesses that we want to see and can serve well. Because of this shortfall, our other patients pay more to make up the difference. Someday soon, neither Mayo Clinic nor those other payers will be able to afford this situation.

Meanwhile, overall Medicare spending is ballooning because many providers have responded to price controls by increasing the number of services they offer . . . spending less and less time with patients but having them return for more frequent office visits, tests and procedures, driving up the volume of billable services. An example: From 2001 to 2005, Medicare cut payments to physicians yet spending-per-beneficiary rose because volumes increased. Research from the Dartmouth Atlas of Health Care shows that many of these “extra” services add nothing but cost to the patient’s care.

To stem skyrocketing health care costs, lawmakers must create financial incentives that reward caregivers for working together to provide high-quality, affordable care. They must pay for value. More than 25 years of experience have proven that price controls do the opposite, yet more than half the financing in proposed health care reform bills comes from continued across-the-board reductions in price-controlled payments. That won’t work.

Instead, lawmakers should put the money where their mouth is. Define and pay for “a great value”: superior patient outcomes, safety and service provided at the lowest possible cost. We can create this simple value score for clinics and hospitals by using standard performance data and hone these measures as better information becomes available.

Over the long term, we should pay for value without artificial price controls. Recognizing that price controls will not go away tomorrow, however, we support an interim approach that would work within the existing Medicare payment model.

A bill recently introduced by Rep. Ron Kind (D-Wis.) and others entitled the Medicare Payment Improvement Act (H.R. 2844) takes an initial step at rewarding value (a similar bill was introduced in the Senate by Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) and others). It is a simple concept: Insert a value “index” into the current Medicare payment formula to financially reward high-value providers and offer an incentive for low-value practitioners to improve. In this case, a health care value index is a basic indicator of “a great value” — a positive medical outcome and high satisfaction compared to the total bill that later arrives in the mailbox.

Over time, we believe that a value index has potential to put downward pressure on the cost curve by rewarding high-quality, efficient providers with payment increases over the standard Medicare rate. When a portion of their payments is based upon value, doctors and hospitals will begin to seriously weigh the benefit of ordering more tests because additional medical spending that does not improve outcomes reduces overall value — and consequently would reduce their Medicare reimbursement. Health care professionals also will begin to understand the value they can add by working in teams to improve care and reduce costs.

To be clear, this is not about rationing care or denying access to needed treatment. That would not be high-value care — outcomes would be poor and satisfaction horribly low. Rather, it’s about holding doctors and hospitals accountable for everything we want in health care — quality and efficiency. Then, institute a “grading scale” for health care payments, rewarding (not penalizing) people and institutions that can deliver the complete package.

Denis Cortese, MD, is president and CEO of Mayo Clinic and Jeffrey Korsmo is executive director of the Mayo Clinic Health Policy Center. Both are in Rochester, Minn

להקיא says:

July 21st, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Why do you Jews need to make a joke out of everything???

We’ve found that they don’t kill you as often if you can make them laugh.

John E Iacono says:

July 21st, 2009 at 5:10 pm

On “the uninsured”

As I pursue the facts in this discussion, I have been hard pressed to find statistics on:

>How many of the “uninsured” are persons who receive medicaid or some other government assistance with their health care needs, and so don’t need insurance;

>how many of the “uninsured” are young healthy folks who see no value in paying for expensive first dollar health care at work because they do not expect to need medical services;

>how many of the “uninsured” are persons who have recently become unemployed and with their greatly reduced income cannot afford to pay the premiums to continue their former plan at the moment;

>and how many of the “uninsured” are so because of a pre-existing condition which makes any coverage they might get one that would exclude their condition, and is so expensive they feel better off just putting the money in savings or hoping for the best.

When such information is NEVER provided it makes me wonder about the “uninsured” statistic itself, because I sense I am being asked to make judgements without the relevant facts.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 5:51 pm

okay, so they’re talking about the price controls of medicare and don’t want those to be a part of a public option.

I haven’t read the bill. What does it say about cost / price control?

They want to base payment on the use of “best practices”.

I recall when the stimulus package passed and there was a provision for switching to an electronic patient chart that has best practice guidelines for patient care embedded in it that the right was screaming about how the government would deny care, blah, blah, blah and how this had nothing to do with helping the economy. These comments by the Mayo physicians demonstrate that it would help control health care costs which in turn helps the economy.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:01 pm

להקיא there’s 100% truth in that. All the great old-school comedians are Jews. Do you think there’s anyone who embodies that tradition of Jewish humor these days? I like to think it’s Sacha Baron Cohen, simply because his real humor is more about the people he’s interacting with than it is about the character.

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:04 pm

John, if they have medicare or medicaid or SCHIP or some other public plan they are not considered to be uninsured.

There are many surveys of the uninsured. They are not hard to find. Start with this one.

http://tinyurl.com/nuvnjr

Google “profile of the uninsured” and you’ll get lots of hits.

adlib says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:51 pm

Dora says “Pay for good patient results at reasonable costs” sounds great. How do they propose to operationalize that?”

If politics is the art of the possible then this country has a limited legislative window of time to make this bill a reality. If all the valid criticisms of the bill serve to stall the bill until that window closes then they serve the vested interests of lobbies that are throwing millions of dollars into slowing and ultimately preventing any changes to the status quo.

I don’t believe that nationalized health care modeled after or expanding the VA hospital system is what’s proposed. But if the buying power of that government system could serve to bring down the unit cost, say of BONIVA, from $43 per pill (monthly dosage) to something that a woman with low income losing bone mass can afford then the dreaded public option needs to get passed in some form ASAP. Having done so the original changes could certainly be improved upon to effect the best results.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Is there anyone else who gets the feeling this “push” for preventative care the last 10 years has help to push up medical costs?

Seems to me we might be looking at 1 in 10 ( I made that up ) where preventive care has caught something. Its a figure I’m sure thats hard to pin point but we didn’t have a lot of it in the 80′s and I’d be curious to know if it has really saved money.

Some I get like breast cancer and colonoscopies but I’m wondering if its more of a myth then a cost saver.

SgtPendleton says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:06 pm

Tiny I’ve heard something like that figure as well.

I think the problem is preventative care went from meaning “regular doctor visits” to colonoscopy or angiogram at any hint of trouble (even in the absense of risk factors).

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:14 pm

Tiny bulbs says:
Some I get like breast cancer and colonoscopies but I’m wondering if its more of a myth then a cost saver.

No, it’s like a very expensive life saver.

As I printed last month to Parth’s scorn, and easily accessable at the Cochrane reviews on the web:

2,000 women aged 50-69 must be screened with regular mammos for 10 years to extend the life of one of those women.
And 10 women from that group will be treated unnecessarily…….

And that is for a very common and deadly cancer. Think about the utility of screening for rarer diseases.

adlib says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:50 pm

“Its a figure I’m sure thats hard to pin point but we didn’t have a lot of it in the 80’s and I’d be curious to know if it has really saved money.”

Can’t recall the day month and year I gave up cigarettes for good, can you? Later than the 80′s for sure. It’s easier to forget that I ever smoked.

adlib says:

July 21st, 2009 at 9:56 pm

“I think the problem is preventative care went from meaning “regular doctor visits” to colonoscopy or angiogram at any hint of trouble (even in the absense of risk factors). ”

Good point. Are we given more and more
mandates to satisfy in the interests of saving ourselves from harm or is it to save our life insurance from risk of loss? I mean is the definition of suicidal behavior (i.e. blowing off medical exams) being expanded entirely for our own benefit?

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:03 pm

And here is a montage of my fave delusional leftie quotes from today, where facts are mere fantasies……

“W stepped into a mess of epic proportions. …W was left to clean up this Clintonian mess…and the economy reeled into recession.” Dora: There’s no responding to abject lunacy such as this
AND
Wow. The economy was humming, the federal budget was running a SURPLUS, and that, to Jim, is a mess, of “epic proportions”. I remember W telling the american public that he advocated the tax rebates because the federal government was in the black and “it’s your money
AND
6Dim, with Congress and the WH in Republican control for 6 years, what did they do to “clean up” Fannie/Freddie mess?
And of course Bush’s deficit was from war spending not because he was trying to “fix” the economy. And you want to equate the economy that W inherited to the economy that Obama inherited.
AND
Oh, I see 6Dim, the Iraq War was W’s economic stimulus package
AND
Things were downright peachy when W came in compared to when O came in. You need to get off the cool aid, Jim.
“Never let facts stand in the way of partisan politics!”
In the Age of Disinformation, one persons fact is another persons lie. Depends on the color of glasses you have on at the time.
Can you name any other administration that enacted several rounds of taxes cuts and fought a war, on two fronts, no less, simultaneously?

Jim says:
WOW!
You do realize, the two front war and the tax cuts were separated by 22 months, right?
And how often is the 6 years Congress/WH lie going to be used? What 6 years, Dora? I only remember 4.

Tax cuts passed ONLY with the 12 Senate Dem votes, almost 2 full years BEFORE the Iraq war.
Man, our lefties need to drink some magic koolaid to give them some IQ or memory boost.
Unfortunately for you, Monty, there is an easy historical record on the internet.

I realize Dora is on permanent Stupid Patrol, but when minimizing the 2001 recession, you seem to forget that John Kerry used this recession to compare W to Herbert Hoover! “Worst firstterm job creation since Hoover!” was the Dem 2004 mantra, or have you forgotten, and those job losses started in 2/2001.
Humming? Surplus? Peachy?
RIIIGGHTTT.
And 911 was only a few months away.
And the corporate fraud of 1998-2001 was soon unveiled in early 2002. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yeh, Bush was soooo lucky ;o)

6th district Jim says:

July 21st, 2009 at 11:21 pm

I realize that facts are irrelevant to some of our remaining BQ’ers, but easy CNN or USAToday google hits still show the following historical records…..
ie facts

1. The “humming” economy is actually flatlining in 3Q 2000 and 1Q 2001, and this is WELL before both 911 and
the corporate fraud scandals break.
2. Bush and Cheney suggest the “R” word is coming in 12/2000, angering the Clinton administration. Who was right?
Tax cuts gain steam at least as much for a stimulus measure, much to Monty’s chagrin, I guess.
3. Job losses begin in 2/2001, and begin the 3rd worst! loss cycle since 1960′s. Humming? Robust? Koolaid?
4. Tax cuts actually pass in May 2001, and this includes a Senate that flips to Democrats in this month, AND the
tax cuts need 12 Senate Dem votes to pass, as Repubs like McCain/Chaffee vote AGAINST the measure.
5. 911 occurs which puts airlines on the brink, requiring both a bailout, and also TORT coverage to allow this
industry to stay in business. Job losses mount.
6. In October 2001, the first war actually begins, with a 12 month cost of roughly 34 billion, almost “paltry” by today’s standards.
7. In January 2002, Enron offices are raided, and the massive accounting scandal starts to come to light, although the wall Street insiders long ago popped the internet bubble because they knew of the coming storms. Job losses continue.
8. November 2002, a Dem Senate passes out Iraq war resolutions.
9. March 2003, Iraq war begin.
10. June 2004, Dems begin the economy campaign, comparing Bush to Hoover,………for an economy that was in full recession the month after he assumes office. Peachy?

So Bush gets:
an economy in recession, followed by 911 which puts the airlines at the mercy of the trial bar, the revelation of history’s biggest corporate fraud scandal (which had started the job losses a year prior)……
= EASY street per Dora, Monty, Parth,
and c’mon who else??? Put it in the BQ archives………

Poor, poor Obama……BooHoo
You know, I can respect Obama because he has manned up to the task at hand, but the snivelers here could learn from his example—sometimes it is a tough job.
And Bush had it every bit as challenging as Obama…..

monty says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 am

“So Bush gets:
an economy in recession, followed by 911 which puts the airlines at the mercy of the trial bar, the revelation of history’s biggest corporate fraud scandal (which had started the job losses a year prior)……”

And W reacts to this “mess of epic proportions” by slinging tax rebates and advocating tax cuts. Ya, things were tough, Jim. Your original point was that W and O faced similar circumstances entering office. O took office with the biggest recession since the Great D already in progress, the financial system in complete disarray, foreclosures and personal bankruptcies skyrocketing, unemployement at 7%-and that’s just the highlights. Get a grip, Jim. You can spin all the “facts” you want, it still comes up short of reality. But hey, enjoy your cool aid!

Dora says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:07 am

Geez 6Dim, you really have gone over the edge. Sad actually to see how totally delusional some people are. If you’re a “birther” believer too, then you’re really a goner.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:19 am

“All the great old-school comedians are Jews.”

Or they’re black.

parthian says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:25 am

Well, 6DJ, this is far and away your best post ever, all my years of training you have finally had some effect! (joke)

It’s a quite creditable argument and not a wholly false story, so you are certain to lose your membership in Team Conservative ™ and have to return the prole cap and decoder ring.

Your problem is that you ignore the advantages that Bush had coming into office—a solvent government with substantial fiscal manuevering room, no ruinous military quagmires, and a Fed that still had some monetary tools available to it.

You also minimize the size of the catastropes that Obama is facing. And you forget truly irresponsible Bushco actions like the second round of tax cuts for the rich Cheney demanded in 2003 as “spoils” for the Repub 2002 election victory.

I’ve already agreed that Bushco faced a recession (which you noted), but by the usual measures, it was short and shallow—only 8 months long, shorter than the average postwar recession. Corporate profits went up fairly quickly.

You are quite correct that the 2001 recession involved substantial job losses, and that it was a jobless recovery for which Bush was pilloried. Of course, the jobs lost had barely “returned” by the end of Bush’s term, so he was a massive failure at job creation, the worst post war prez ever on that account–by far.

And you act like the “Iraq War” was some massive involuntary natural disaster forced on an unwilling Bushco, when in fact it was a planned, signature policy that Cheney was determined to undertake from the moment he was elected prez.

As for the size and scope of the disasters facing Obama, to compare them with what Bush faced in Jan 2001 is simply ludicrous—even if one granted that Bush faced economic challenges. Obama inherited:

–The Great Recession (by far the longest and worst post war recesssion, which will ultimately be declared a depression);

–an almost complete unprecedented meltdown of the financial system;

–a deeply compromised federal government that had added $4.5 trillion of debt in 8 years (for nothing);

–two ruinous ongoing military quagmires which likely cannot be resolved and a heavily overburdened and overextended military;

–a Middle east “policy” which has essentially blown up the region;

–a North Korea with nuclear weapons;

–a degraded international reputation that will take decades to repair, and most likely cannot be repaired;

–a health care financing system on the point of collapse, a long ignored energy crisis, and a completely ignored environmental crisis that has advanced to the very brink of catastrophe.

So, no, one cannot legitimately compare the two situations.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:32 am

WASHINGTON – Days after his return from an unannounced pilgrimage to the Islamic holy site of Mecca, U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison talked about it as a transformational personal experience, saying “I didn’t want to turn it into a politics thing.”

Nearly eight months later, the Minneapolis DFLer faces a House Ethics Committee review of his decision to keep the trip’s costs under wraps — even though it was paid for by a local Islamic nonprofit and typically would be reported as a gift to a public official.

Now are the Big Q blogs going to be..

Franken
Ellison
Ellison
Franken
Franken
Franken
Ellison
Bachmann

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:36 am

“And Bush had it every bit as challenging as Obama”

Even if we can agree that it was bad (doesnt every president face challenges?) it’s not close to as bad as what Obama took over. No matter what Bush took on or how bad it was, it was even worse by any measure than when he left, meaning Obama got the same problems Bush did only compounded by time and bad governing.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:39 am

“–a health care financing system on the point of collapse, a long ignored energy crisis, and a completely ignored environmental crisis that has advanced to the very brink of catastrophe.”

Bush had all these problems too he just didnt do anything about them.

parthian says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 am

“Bush had all those problems too”

Agreed. But by utterly ignoring them for another 8 years, they are now that much worse. Especially global warming.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 9:01 am

“Especially global warming”

On this I disagree. It will take longer than 8 years to make things especially worse. GW is a problem but the time line for our destruction as a species and planet is longer than our destruction as citizens and a nation from the energy and health care crises.

parthian says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 9:22 am

Yes, if you’re talking about the timeline for species and civilizational destruction from global warming, I agree with you, so I wasn’t being very clear.

What happened by Bush’s ignoring of GW for 8 years is that we are now right on top of the so-called tipping point, the point where the future catastophe becomes irreversible, no matter what the desperate humans do in 2015 or 2020.

But the (then irreversible) actual meltdown of the climate will take longer than, say, the coming upheavals from ever-declining oil extraction, you’re right IMO.

parthian says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 9:27 am

And I will also say that the effects of the warming and its acceleration have exceeded the scientists’ predictions at EVERY stage, so the actual massive change of the planet’s 11,000 year old stable climate may happen faster than even the climate scientists predict—but that’s speculation.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 9:37 am

“What happened by Bush’s ignoring of GW for 8 years is that we are now right on top of the so-called tipping point, the point where the future catastophe becomes irreversible, no matter what the desperate humans do in 2015 or 2020.”

Even if Bush was the greatest Global Warming president ever, a world leader in climate change policy, this is still a planet filled with polluters. I dont think one man, even if that man is president of the USA, can have enough effect on the climate in 8 years to save it from reaching any tipping point, or cause the tipping point to be crossed, especially when you dont know exactly where that point is or what it looks like. Thats not to excuse putting off policy changes for 8 years, but I think you over state the effects Bush had on the planets climate. You make it sound like he’s destroyed the planet, I think thats overstating your position.

להקיא says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:17 am

Fortunately, we have received from God, the gift of Barak Obama. Now, the major polluters will have to get a “permit” to continue polluting. Obama shrewdly concluded that none of the energy companies will be willing to risk the consequences of passing along the cost of these “permits” to the consumer.

Picture mass consumer revolt, where 95%of their Minnesota customers teach the energy companies a lesson, and cancel their heat/electric service in January.

Thank you, Barak Obama, for taking this important step in saving the planet.

להקיא says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:26 am

Do you think there’s anyone who embodies that tradition of Jewish humor these days? I like to think it’s Sacha Baron Cohen.

Both he and Sarah Silverman have embodied a tradition of presenting our
society’s more absurd nature (i.e. our racial and ethnic fears) by throwing it right in our face. A tradition perhaps started by Mel Brooks.

SgtPendleton says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:31 am

Or they’re black.

I’m talking OLD old school – pre-Bill Cosby era. Marx Brothers, insult comics, etc…In entertainment, Jews were the African Americans of the first half of the 20th century.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 10:45 am

Red Foxx was old school.

SgtPendleton says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 11:00 am

Red Foxx was old school.

Not the same kind of old school as the Jews were. He was a “blue” comic – too raunchy for even burlesque clubs, but that changed in the 60s. It still pretty much kept him in strip clubs until he tamed his act in the 70s and got the TV show.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 11:15 am

“Not the same kind of old school as the Jews were.”

But he was old school. I dont think you can talk about the history of Stand Up comedy and not mention Red Foxx as one of the all time greats of his or any other era.

Im just saying that not ALL the great old school comics were Jews, although the did corner the market. Typical.

להקיא says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

“not ALL the great old school comics were Jews”

My all time fav was a Catholic.

SgtPendleton says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

STOP ARGUING WITH ME!!!

LOL

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm

“STOP ARGUING WITH ME!!!”

I have to.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm

How about tax refunds for out of pocket for people under 250,000.

Again Health insurance premiums based on income.

How about opening up health insurance like car insurance.

How about tax breaks for employers that offer health insurance.

How about NO denying health insurance for preexisting conditions.

College low premiums for college students

How about access to your SS fund if you have a medical emergency

There are so many different avenues we can go down.

Anything but a government run insurance.

When I was a liberal communist democrat for oh so many years I saw government as this magical thing. But its only as I got older I realized its just people.
People who will hold on to their piece of the action at any costs.

I’m not against this plan because its Obama. I’m against it because I see how government has handled other things and they do a terrible job.

I still wish we could pass on our SS benefits to our children. Think of the thousand of dollars you have put into it and the odds that you will ever see a dime of it.

odd for me after they raise the retirement age to 70 aren’t very good. I’d say I probably have a 20% chance of see any of that money.

Take the politics out of this and do some “smart” things.

Deacon Blues says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 4:58 pm

“I still wish we could pass on our SS benefits to our children. Think of the thousand of dollars you have put into it and the odds that you will ever see a dime of it.”

You dont have a SS account your accumulating Tiny. The SSA is a clearing house. Your taxes go in and get turned around and sent out to retirees today.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 5:11 pm

“You dont have a SS account your accumulating Tiny. The SSA is a clearing house. Your taxes go in and get turned around and sent out to retirees today.”

But they send me a statement telling me how much I have….?????

I know but as I get older and with the heart deal and the way I lived in my 20′s and early 30′s I don’t think I’ll make it.

Tiny bulbs says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm

I guess Obama will tell us tonight this health care thing “Is not a game”

A game ? Then what the hell where democrats doing during the war in Iraq. Playing god damn games.

Some frickin’ nerve.

adlib says:

July 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm

“I still wish we could pass on our SS benefits to our children. Think of the thousand of dollars you have put into it and the odds that you will ever see a dime of it.”

Odds are that you will take more out of SS in benefits than you put into it, even counting the opportunity cost of your contributions.

Deacon Blues says:

July 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am

“But they send me a statement telling me how much I have….?????”

No, how much you could collect if you retired when your eligable.

John E Iacono says:

July 24th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Dora says:

July 21st, 2009 at 6:04 pm

John, if they have medicare or medicaid or SCHIP or some other public plan they are not considered to be uninsured.

>The report at the tinyurl site suggests, but does not say, that these folks are not considered uninsured in the survey.

There are many surveys of the uninsured. They are not hard to find. Start with this one.

http://tinyurl.com/nuvnjr

>Thanks, Dora, for this url. However, it does not speak to the questions I am seeking answers for, as the groups it discusses could easily include the ones I wonder about.

Google “profile of the uninsured” and you’ll get lots of hits.

>Thanks much for this tip! A lot of references. Unfortunately, the ones I have read so far — although they differentiate by age, by poverty level, by work status, by employer size, and by outcomes — do not discuss the groups I am seeking to identify who are parts of the claimed “uninsured.”

One helpful measure, however, did come up: it seems “ill health or prior illness is a barrier to (only) 3 percent of the uninsured.”

Also, the age groupings say 31% of the uninsured are between 18 and 29, the group I believe, if feeling well and invulnerable, that would pass on health insurance from their employer unless it was free, feeling they could better spend their money elsewhere.

Still, thanks for the tip — I now have another big pile to search through for answers.

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