Verbatim
Glenn Beck to Keith Ellison: “Prove to me you’re not working with our enemies”
November 17th, 2006 – 3:45 PM by Eric Black
November 14, CNN’s Headline News, Glenn Beck interview with Keith Ellison:
BECK: I will tell you, may I — may we have five minutes here where we’re just politically incorrect and I play the cards face up on the table?
ELLISON: Go there.
BECK: OK. No offense, and I know Muslims. I like Muslims. I’ve been to mosques. I really don’t believe that Islam is a religion of evil. I — you know, I think it’s being hijacked, quite frankly.
With that being said, you are a Democrat. You are saying, ‘Let’s cut and run.’ And I have to tell you, I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, ‘Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.’
And I know you’re not. I’m not accusing you of being an enemy, but that’s the way I feel, and I think a lot of Americans will feel that way.
ELLISON: Well, let me tell you, the people of the Fifth Congressional District know that I have a deep love and affection for my country. There’s no one who is more patriotic than I am. And so, you know, I don’t need to — need to prove my patriotic stripes.
130 Responses to "Verbatim
Glenn Beck to Keith Ellison: “Prove to me you’re not working with our enemies”"
I enjoyed Jon Stewart’s rendition
So does this little bit support or challenge the ‘conventional wisdom’ that the media is inherently liberal?
I think what it does support is Glen Beck’s status as a complete fool.
What a creep: “I’m not really saying you’re a traitor, but here’s a weaselly way to say it anyway.”
Beck should be canned.
REW — Thanks for the link.
Now that is entertainment.
Canned? That is what Glenn Beck, and Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh get paid to do. They are outrageous because that is what creates audiences and sells books. It is entertainment, just as Jon Stewart’s comments on it are too.
That is what Glenn Beck, and Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh get paid to do. — Mark
Absolutely. Beck, et al, are paid for their opinions; they do not claim to be objective journalists. Which is fine with me. No one is objective, IMO.
But someone had to ask Keith that! And i am glad Glen Beck did. There are many people outside the liberal circles who are very hesitant and suspicious about Keith and his ties to CAIR.
And surely, under Glenn Beck’s very astute and sophisticated questioning, Ellison was going to spill the beans.
Watch the clip to see how Ellison reacted to this idiocy. He laughed. Some terrorist.
Glenn Beck is a Drama Queen. With emphasis on Queen.
Now I don’t mean to imply that Glenn Beck is just another gay-right-wing-waco-hiding-in-the-closet Republican like Mark Foley. I know many gay-right-wing-waco-hiding-in-the-closet Republicans, and they are fine people.
He just lies and attempts to influence our democracy in negative ways.
Now I don’t mean to imply that Glenn Beck is a traitor…
Agreed, Beck is not astute, and borderlines goofy, and yes, his question was so far out there, it only set Keith up to look good. Like Keith is going to say, well, Glenn, I am indeed working with the enemy! But Glenn, in my opinion, represents a large number of middleclass Americans that are suspicious of him, CAIR, and his plan to cut and run in Iraq. OK, lets get out of Iraq, but what is Keith’s plan to win the war against terror after that? He just hasn’t spelled that out. We need a plan after leaving Iraq! I wouldn’t want to be in Keith shoes, and although he said he doenst have to prove anything, unfortunately he does have to prove a lot, being the first muslim on congress, he will be under a microscope.
As a voter in the 5th Congressional District I wish Keith Ellision were the 2nd member of the Muslim faith elected to the US Congress, however as our newly elected 5th District Congressman I believe he is already representing the diversity of the electorate which has chosen himhim to represent them.
Aircraft, I don’t think Glenn is gay, he has an obvious crush on fellow anchor Erica Hill, and I think she despises him! Now if that isnt a typical heterosexual male scenerio, what is? However, he probably wouldnt go near Nancy Grace for fear of getting his whatever ripped off, who would? 
CNN Headline News is awful. They’re trying to be more “extreme” than Fox, and it’s embarrassing.
I wish they’d go back to being a channel that does nothing but NEWS. Cable already has too many right-wing idiots.
What an awful question.
The difference between Glenn Beck and Limbaugh, Stewart, and Frankin is they (LSF) are not part of a NEWS program. They each label themselves entertainers and when they interview you, you can reasonably expect a specific slant. Beck IS on a NEWS program and it is reasonable to expect at least the air of objectivity. I don’t watch CNN so I’m not really sure what he does there, but I would assume that a journalist would interview an incoming representative — I suspect Ellison believed that as well.
This reminds me of the Jon Stewart interview on Crossfire (the one that got Crossfire cancelled). When Stewart decried the lack of civil discourse on shows like Crossfire, Paul Begala retorted that this was because Crossfire was a ‘debate’ show.
(Stewart) No, no, no, no, that would be great. To do a debate would be great. But that’s like saying pro wrestling is a show about athletic competition. … Now, this is theater. It’s obvious. How old are you?
(Tucker Carlson) Thirty-five.
(Stewart) And you still wear a bow tie.
Susanne Aspley -
“There are many people outside the liberal circles who are very hesitant and suspicious about Keith and his ties to CAIR.”
Yes. All he did was state a defensible suspicion arguably too baldly. And it’s because of CAIR that it’s a defensible position.
I don’t say that CAIR is an enemy of the U.S. I do say I doubt anyone here hurling their epithets has made a thorough study of the idea. (Reading the Star-Trib doesn’t count.) CAIR is quite the unique and strong-minded group.
How did Minnesota liberals fall into the role of frontline, no questions asked defenders of CAIR? WTH?
uh, Jon Stewart is a hollywood comedian…of course he is going to make funny anything, he is funny, but don’t put him in the same league as Keith, CAIR, and the war we are in. People jumping off a burning sky scraper on 9/11 ia not funny. Remember those photos?
Yes, and remember the Oklahoma City bombing? Well, it was a Christian terrorist who commited that crime, and you look like you might be a Christian, so prove to me that you are not a terrorist as well.
RLW -
You have to try a little harder than that. That’s so 2004.
Yes RLW, think a little bit. How do you know McVeigh was Christian? Did he blow up the building to kill in the name of religion? You goodball lefties seem to grab at every lone wacko that has murdered and claim that “SEE! Christian’s kill too!”
No, my point was simply that you can’t assume things about people based on their religion. McVeigh was inspired to retaliate because of what happened to the Branch Davidians in Waco; I don’t really know what he was thinking.
It almost starts to look like you don’t see what is wrong with asking a Muslim to prove he is not a terrorist. And back to epistemology 101, you have to prove the positive, not the negative.
Okay. The point is this: for me, and actually I can’t say for sure what this guy’s point was, I’ve frankly never heard of him: I have reasonable questions about what CAIR is all about. And, I don’t at all buy the line of argument that Keith Ellison’s relationship with a group like CAIR or any group at all that purports to represent Muslims in the USA is no more interesting than any other politician’s.
More later maybe. Whatever. Keep it real.
sadly, with the predominate islamic international track record, many Americans feel that Islam is a religion of hate and death. Many Americans need to be proven that this is not the case, and long for someone or something to prove otherwise. It just hasnt happened. Maybe Keith will do it. I hope he does, I am longing for it, but I am not going to bet money on it. Regarding McVeigh, what? He was inspired to retaliate because of what happened to the Branch Davidians in Waco??? Since when? Give me some facts, links, please.
“Well, it was a Christian terrorist who commited that crime, and you look like you might be a Christian, so prove to me that you are not a terrorist as well. ”
This is a simplistic statement. However, people connected to McVeigh for whatever reason were investigated and the legitimate suspect in his conspiiracy or others.
The same holds true in the 9/11 case. Certain organizations have helped terror causes. Anyone associated with those organizations are a legitmate target of invesitagion.
”
Mark says: Anyone associated with those organizations
And what exactly does that mean? Be careful Mark, Republicans have been “associated” with that organization too.
Paul, you’ve made your point about CAIR but Beck’s comment had nothing to do with CAIR, it had everything to do with him being a Muslim. And I’m with RLW and the others on this. Asking him to prove he’s not a terrorist is not just insulting it’s contemptible.
It baffles me that many of the same crowd are willing to go the nth degree to defend this person, yet call Bachman a psycho Nazi. Then again, it really doesn’t.
Susanne, this is from Wikipedia:
McVeigh instructed his lawyers to use a “necessity” defense and to argue that his bombing of the Murrah Federal Building was a justifiable response to what McVeigh believed were the crimes of the U.S. government at Waco, Texas, during the 51-day siege of the Branch Davidian complex that resulted in the death of 76 Branch Davidian members. As part of his defense, McVeigh’s lawyers showed the controversial video Waco: The Big Lie to the jury at his trial.
Google ‘Timothy McVeigh Branch Davidians’ if you want to read more.
““Well, it was a Christian terrorist who commited that crime, and you look like you might be a Christian, so prove to me that you are not a terrorist as well. ”
This is a simplistic statement.”
I think that’s the point. What is being said about Ellison is simplistic.
Despite howling to the contrary, Ellison’s actions in office have had little to nothing to do with CAIR and more to do with gay rights, workers’ rights, civil rights, etc. etc.
How unpatriotic…
xray, who called Bachman a “psycho Nazi”? Or is this another strawman?
“It baffles me that many of the same crowd are willing to go the nth degree to defend this person, yet call Bachman a psycho Nazi. Then again, it really doesn’t.”
Wow! You saw someone ask her if she was a Nazi on CNN? On Fox? On MSNBC? By Newsweek? By the Star Tribune?
Oh those liberal media outlets, who knows what crazy things they’ll throw out at candidates.
Individuals can say whatever they want, we’re talking about the media–you know, those people who people are often influenced by, or learn their facts from?
Apples to oranges.
Several of the people I work with have said just this. Four to be exact, one who contributes to the board, but didn’t dare to say it publicly.
Working in higher ed is so gratifying.
xray–
So? Are they sending out press releases from your university advocating that position?
I’ve been around enough radicals on both sides of the coin during my lifetime that I know how to get people to calm down around me.
Sort of like when conservatives at work said messed up things about Ellison…those damned higher ed liberals. I mean, really, where in the media is Bachman being demonized? Because she has had little to no scrutiny for her radical beliefs, whereas Ellison has displayed no suspect behavior in office and has been deluged.
I just can’t bring myself to feel bad for liberals hating Bachman when it seems to have no bearing on her successes or portrayal in the media.
Prove me wrong, though. I’d love to see a comparison of Ellison v. Bachman coverage validating the Kersten view of oppression. (And, no, post-election commentary by Nick Coleman cannot count. Pre-election only, and it would be nice for people to cite news stories.)
Better than a press release, our CEO sent out a memo to every employee stating if you do not support liberal views, and do not feel comfortable voting for that ideology, then you should seek other employment.
Walden University
155 5th Ave S
Minneapolis, MN 55401 – 2540
(612) 338-7224
xray-
Link to the document please, allegations like that are very serious. I would have a lawyer by now if the reverse were true, not posting on a blog.
Also, Walden is owned by Laureate, a publicly traded company.
And there was not link. It was placed int my personal mailbox, i.e. not email.
And here is one more interesting note, they show a video to new employees, and the video also makes this same statement. Go ask them yourself, they are proud of it.
Just to be fair, I worked for several years at a corporation that sold guns and ammunition. That CEO also sent memos to be sure to vote “NRA friendly”.
Back to my original point, I believe too many of us are ideologically driven, willing to overlook “our side”, and be on a 24×7 attack mode of the “opposition”.
Xray may not have quoted anybody verbatim, but all one has to do is read the thousand or so posts about Bachman from previous threads to understand that they mean the same thing. Nothing close to that was said about Ellison. Glenn Beck has every right to ask Ellison who’s side he is on. Just like Lynn Cheny had the right to ask Wolf if he really wanted to US to win in Iraq. I think there are many people that feel America is teetering. Will it remain the dominant force in the world or become a weak has been. Many in the world, and in this country too, would love for this to happen. I feel Ellison represents this side.
Bleeding heart, why is it I need to get lawyer because I may be offended? This thought never entered my mind. What did I miss growing up?
Brian G, you’ve got to be kidding. Nothing close to that was said about Ellison? Go back and read dare2’s comments. You’ve got blinders on if you don’t see his comments in the same vein as xray was referring to. Beck may have a “right” to ask that as in a free speech right but it doesn’t make what he asked right. You’re assertions are repugnant to me.
You know xray, making disparaging comments about your employer on a public blog is not a smart thing to do. If you’ve got a beef take it up with them or quit. The original point made by BH about the press release was about calling Bachmann a “psycho Nazi”. Is that what the CEO’s memo said? And since you’re an anonymous poster telling us what the memo said you’ll have to pardon me if I take your statement with a grain of salt.
“Several of the people I work with have said just this. Four to be exact, one who contributes to the board, but didn’t dare to say it publicly.”
did you read this, and no, the memo did not say state this.
a grain of salt? we’re on a blog for god sake, i take everything with a gran of salt.
GO ASK WALDEN U IF I AM WRONG
Thanks Dora, did not know that. Now back to Keith, what I would like to know is why didnt he just answer the question? Why didnt he just say, No, I am not. I condemn Islamic terrorism, and I condemn any organization that directly or indirectly supports it.
Dora:
The way I read the exchange and the way I read reality, if someone were to say to Glenn Beck, “what the hell do you mean specifically, why do you say that,” the discussion would inevitably involve CAIR, as well as a number of other things. The assumption that he’s saying things based solely on the fact of Keith’s Muslim-ness is just an assumption.
(My point about CAIR would be: I don’t necessarily trust their motivations in demanding we leave Iraq. I think they’d be saying that even if it were more justifiable. I suspect their deep desires on any number of issues have less to do with what I consider reality and with the good old USA than I might want them to.
(As for Keith’s relationship, I think his new role as national model for moderate Islam, a role he has whether he wants it or not, means that I don’t want him heedlessly communicating unquestioning acceptance of CAIR as The Voice of American Islam. That’s the main short-term danger I see. That’s why his statement that no, he won’t be headlining the CAIR annual banquet tonight is a good sign of reflection; he’s still advertised on the CAIR site though. But enough of that, CAIR isn’t the issue I want to get into.)
I went and found the entire transcript of the interview. Keith himself seems to no mind answering some hard questions, I’d point that out. The conversation gets going and then Keith makes an interesting point about how Sunnis and Shia have never had a Civil War, and then Glenn B. cuts him off and it seems disrespectful and leaves me wanting more on that idea but then it may just be that they ran out of time.
Anyway, here’s how it resumes after Keith’s pointed declaration above that he doesn’t have to defend his patriotism:
BECK: And I’m not asking you to. I’m wondering if you see that. (Me: That someone might feel that way, I think is what he means.) You come from a district that is heavily immigrant with Somalians, and I think it’s wonderful, honestly. I think it is really a good sign that you are — you could be an icon to show Europe, this is the way you integrate into a country. I think the Somalians coming out and voting is a very good thing. With that…
ELLISON: I’d agree with you.
BECK: Yes. With that being said, you see — I saw a recent poll that showed 25 percent of Muslims in America will not report a terrorist plot if they see it.
ELLISON: Well, I don’t believe that poll. I think that Muslims in America are very loyal, patriotic people. We have over 7,000 Muslims who are in the United States armed forces fighting to defend this great country of ours. So, I just don’t see it that way, and I think that I’ve seen a number of polls that just — were just flat out wrong about this one.
Here’s the link:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0611/14/gb.01.html
The larger way I think about a discussion like this: even if Glenn Beck himself is a raging racist f-wad, I don’t want that tiny fact to play a role in shouting down the hard questions that exist regardless of whether Glenn Beck were ever born.
Keith’s evasive answer above about the polls seems a version of this. Not shouting down the hard questions, in that case, but pretending they don’t exist. That’s not the sign of a man who will be able to lead American Muslims in the way I believe would be most valuable.
(His own statement that he’s seen a ‘number’ of similar polls casts doubt on the idea that they’d all be wrong; and of course most of us have heard of even worse results in Europe. Nevertheless, there is a chance they’re wrong and I myself haven’t seen what they’re talkimg about.)
Evasiveness is where the over-arching problem of Keith’s extreme left-ness comes into play.
The extreme left is constitutionally incapable of making at least some of the arguments you need to make to explain to American Muslims (if some actually need it explained) why not reporting a terror plot is wholly unjustified and insane.
Yes, they can explain about non-violence, but the thing is, most leftists aren’t pacifists. Even the ones who call themselves pacifists I suspect lose some of their subconscious ardor when the issue becomes violence against the US, which in the milieu from which their pacifism has grown is the main cause of violence in the world.
So what they can’t explain to American Muslims is why the US is not the Great Satan some Muslims and even some American Muslims may believe it to be. Because they think it is too (to state it baldly).
This may be a little more complex version of what Brian G was saying in shorter form. In both cases, we might be accused of questioning the left’s patriotism, and if that’s the way someone wants to hear it, I can’t stop them. But it doesn’t change what I want to say. I do believe almost everyone on the extreme left harbors a latent love for the country, although its usually a pretty conditional, even hypothetical love. But there are implications of some of the core beliefs at a time like this.
Dora, I am glad my assertions are repugnant to you. It confirms that I am on the right track. Your views and statements that I have been reading here in the Star’s blogs put you in the camp of those I speak of. Don’t you think that you and the views of other leftist writers are “repugnant” to many of us on the right? The one thing That I have not done, nor have many of the other right wing writers is to get vicious and repuslive in our posts.
Yes xray I did read it. So what was the point of bringing in the CEO of Walden?
Susanne, I doubt that even if he did say that it would satisfy anybody. I can hear the response now, ‘why of course he would say that, he wouldn’t admit it if he was’. So why should he legitimize the question?
How about posting the text of this alleged email?
And Walden U? Is that even accredited? Check out Bob Jones University sometime. Call me when the U of M tells you to vote DFL or get fired.
Oh please Brian, many many RW posters have been vicious and repulsive. You’ve done your share of personal insults Brian and have done your best to demean me. Don’t even try to play the victim here.
Paul you are reading way to much into what Beck said to conclude that the discussion would have inevitably lead to talking about CAIR. My view is based on what he said not on my assumption of what he meant.
Being a “raging racist f-wad” is hardly a “tiny fact”, it drives his questioning. If you want a serious and substantive discussion then make sure someone who isn’t a “raging racist f-wad” is asking the questions.
If Keith’s “evasiveness” is what bothers you then you should be bothered by every single politician b/c they are all evasive. I wouldn’t have even gone on Beck’s show if I were Keith b/c as far as I’m concerned it’s a set up. But I wouldn’t have gone on Hewitt’s show if I were EB either, for the same reason.
Who are the media figures on the right that can be more civil and substantive in their questioning and exploration of issues? I’m not being snarky here I’d really like to know.
Dennis Prager would be a good RW interviewer for Keith. Have you listened to him?
Dora -
I think you read my post trying to find ways to disagree with it. We all do it at times.
It’s pretty long, and that’s a pretty quick response, and I’m pretty damn serious about the points I’m making, and most of your specifics manage to sidestep the main points I’m trying to make.
Beck’s stance and tactics may not be a tiny fact if the topic of our discussion is “the media,” as you for some reason start turning it into. I’m not talking about that. It’s tiny in the context of the hard questions I focus on.
Dennis Prager, to answer your last question. Almost the entire staff of the National Review. Doug Tice, for that matter. Just off the top of my skinny head. (According to my niece.)
oh and Brian, it’s too bad that you aspire to be repugnant. If you ever tried seeing things from a different perspective you might be surprised that we aren’t the horrible people headed for eternal damnation that you wish us to be.
I’m done for the day. Gotta go to the amusement park formerly known as Camp Snoopy. (That ‘formerly known as’ phrasing may, in the end, turn out to be Prince’s most lasting contribution to our culture.)
The thing is that Glenn Beck has proved once again that there is no action a right-winger can do that is heinous enough to get him or her blackballed from public life. Ever.
Unless, of course it was opposing George W. Bush’s planned invasion of Iraq back in 2002. That’s what finally got Pat Buchanan blackballed — not his racism (that all his conservative buddies knew about), not his hatred of Jews (that all his conservative buddies knew about), not his fondness for thuggery (that all his conservative buddies knew about), but his opposing Bush’s invasion of Iraq. (And even there, Buchanan opposed it not out of concern for the Iraqi people, but because he didn’t want Nice White American Christians dying on behalf of brown-skinned Muslims.)
PW -
You should audition for some stage work. Is there a local production of “Mommy Dearest” in the offing?
Now, I’m gone. Seriously. Goodbye. I have to go purchase a large but thin hat.
Well Dora I am sorry if I have personally insulted you. I, and others, have attempted to change your views but I do not think I have called you any names?
How can you possibly say that RW’ shave posted as many nasty things about Ellison as the LW’s have posted about Bachman? You can be honest here. I think you have read most of them, more than I have to be sure.
Another good RW interviewer would be Michael Medved. He often take a beating on his own show. He lets others talk. O’Reilly is good too ,but people get pissed at him when he inturrupts. But look at why he does it? His guests get off issue.
And thanks Paul for the assist. I do not have the typing skills to write that much.
Well Paul, I do think the topic of the discussion is the media. Glenn Beck is part of the media. The verbatim topic is about his interview with Ellison. Sorry but I think your post was trying to turn it into something else which is fine but I’ve had that discussion with you already so I stayed with the media angle in my reply.
And I have to tell you truthfully, it irritates me the way you consistently speak for the left as if you have some objective knowledge of how the left thinks that the rest of us lack. For example this comment I do believe almost everyone on the extreme left harbors a latent love for the country, although its usually a pretty conditional, even hypothetical love. By saying the left’s love of country is conditional, even hypothetical implies that the right’s love of country is somehow purer. And that’s simply insulting. I suppose you tried to make it more palatable by saying the “extreme left” but let’s face it anybody on the left is referred to as being extreme.
I’d go with Doug Tice to interview Ellison in an intellectually honest manner. Besides, he’s local. Perhaps he’ll take us up on it and attempt to get into the issues that Susanne and you have raised.
Dora I was just using your own words. I do not really aspire to be repugnant nor to make you so. Nor have I ever claimed that anybody is headed for eternal damnation. Comeon now. Be fair.
PW, Come on now, Glenn asking Keith a question, that many would like to know the answer to, can’t be described as Heinous. Also, I can think of a few examples from the liberal media that should have caused them to be blackballed just as well. Remember all those photoshopped and staged photos coming out of Lebanon by Reuters? Or CNN playing that horrible propaganda video shot by Iraqi insurgents actually showing a real sniper attack on our US soldiers, and one our soldiers actually getting hit?
Ms. Dora,
Many come out into cyberspace and rip corporations every day, let’s talk about Enron or Halliburton? I have no problem coming out to rip a local corp. It seems you are the one with the problem. By the way, the CEO of Walden is not a “he”. he… he….
I think there is a difference betweens the left’s love of country and the rights. I love America for what it has been. How it was founded and how it has become what it is today. I am a traditionalist I guess. I view the left as being ashamed of the same things I am proud of. I see them wanting to change the foundations of this country. Thereby making it something different. Personally I do not want the country to go there. I think the models the left look at are the European models. Not something to envy in the least but something to avoid.
And Dora. PWoman always comes across with posts that typify all RW’s ideas about the left.
I have to go too. Bye.
Brian, I can say it about Ellison because I’ve read it.
What is with you and others who get all verklempt about name calling? I’m sure that if you went all the way back to the first posts we ever exchanged you’d find that you did do so. But big deal. I said on more than one occasion to those who were calling me names that they were doing it b/c they thought I was making an impact and they didn’t like it. What gets me is when those who have done it feign such indignation. Furgitaboutit.
um xray, I didn’t refer to the CEO in any gender.
Well Brian, you’d be surprised to know that is why the left loves their country too. We apparently have a different view of what those things are and mean. I don’t take responsibility for what other people post nor do I think that they speak for entire groups of other people.
It’s getting pretty easy to predict what people say due to their ideology. I’m a proud American native, and I just sit back and have a good laugh.
Ms. Dora, I misread one of your posts. You did not say the CEO of Walden was a man. Please accept my apology.
Brian G: That is total crap. Quit believing the right-wing noise machine that has distorted and lied about all things liberal and progressive; you’re embarrassing yourself.
So in the interest of open discussion, feel free to name one issue that you “…view the left as being ashamed of … (that) I am proud of.”
Here is one, the American flag. By burning our flag, it appears the liberals that do so are ashamed of America in general. Most republicans think it is awful to do that to our flag, because it is ours and represents us.
Susanne: Believe it or not, the only legal and proper way to dispose of a worn or torn American flag is to burn it.
I’m old enough to remember when K-Mart got into heaps of trouble for “desecrating the Flag” because they were selling sneakers decorated in an American flag motif. Nowadays, the righties will wrap themselves in the Flag while claiming to “respect” it — and, more importantly, while they use the Constitution for toilet paper. (Remember habeas corpus? That eight-century-old cornerstone of world democratic traditions? Bush and the Republicans shot that down recently.)
Susanne: Prove to me that you’re not working with our enemies. Prove to me that you’re not selling crack on streetcorners to raise money for Al-Qaeda. Prove to me that you’re not affiliated with any groups who may have a connection with other groups who may know someone whose nephew might be in Al-Qaeda.
Oh, and prove to me that you haven’t beaten your wife lately.
Gee, the shoe doesn’t feel so comfy when it’s YOUR foot being shoehorned into it, does it?
By the way, Eric: Atrios today did a post in praise of local bloggers, such as yourself. I think that you’d find it interesting, whether or not you agreed with his premises.
I meant burning the flag in protest to something. I think it should be protected from that out of respect. Don’t liberals want to be able to burn it as free speech? Going back to tradition, I dout our founding fathers had that in mind, desacrating our flag that is. Re: habeas corpus, you mean as far as Gitmo prisoners are concerned?
That reminds me: Valuing symbols (such as flags) over laws and ideas (such as the Magna Carta or the Constitution) is a symptom of authoritarian behavior which at its core is hostile to democracy and to free thought.
Oh, and Susanne:
If it’s OK for Glenn Beck to demand that Ellison prove that he’s not working with Al-Qaeda, then you have to prove to us that you’re not working for Al-Qaeda.
Fair’s fair, y’know.
(And does anyone else here remember when the conservatives spiritual ancestors of Glenn Beck were up in arms about JFK because they claimed that his first loyalty was not to America but the Pope?)
sheesh, PW!
OK, If someome asked me to prove something, I would prove it. I would be happy to clarify any misconception that people might have of me, and dare I say, which Keith should have.
I still object to the craven way Beck asked the question:
“And I know you’re not . I’m not accusing you of being an enemy, but that’s the way I feel, and I think a lot of Americans will feel that way.”
Why does the phrase ‘plausible deniability’ spring to mind?
OK, Glen, if you already know, then maybe you should be asking the phantom people you reference why they think that.
Anyone remember the old joke about the pirate captain and the first mate?
The mate was a drunk, and everyday the captain wrote into the log: “The first mate was drunk today”.
One day the captain had to go ashore, and left the ship under the command of the first mate.
The first mate’s entry into the log that day?
“The captain was sober today”.
Maybe Glen Beck was joking.
xray:
The reason I said I would have had a lawyer is that if a company literally threatened to fire employees if they didn’t vote a certain way, they would be guilty not only of discrimination, but some sort of vote fixing. It’s the same idea as “vote selling” (the reason we don’t give ‘receipts’ after people vote, so they can’t prove to some buyer that they voted a certain way).
Of course, employers have no way of knowing who you voted for, but they are responsible for creating a reasonable work environment.
Knowing a CEO’s ideology is one thing, having your job threatened for disagreeing is another.
Personally, I wouldn’t be throwing my employer’s name around on a blog…but I value my position.
Back to the subject at hand, I’d have been much happier if Beck’s idiocy had been directed at our district as opposed to Ellison.
I mean, we did vote for him, right? So if he’s with Al Qaeda…then…wow…55% of us must side with the terrorists too! Minneapolis, den of sin. Silly Minnesotans, those Muslims sure did con us.
As I said before, take issue with his stances. And “cut and run” isn’t a stance, it’s a RW sound bite. Ask Ellison what he means when he says we need to leave Iraq immediately - how he would propose implementing that without causing chaos - instead of asking stupid questions that are meant to create controversy. Or, as I said, find something in his record to take issue with.
Like his love of radical Islam resulting in his standing up for the rights of GLBT Minnesotans.
Cut and Run is not a slogan or a RW sound bite, it is a not so clever attempt to put words in other people’s mouths. When will the bully boys quit telling everyone what I believe. Thet actually don’t have a clue. I have manners, so I don’t bully the RW with misleading slogans. Also, I believe that if you are getting most of your information about other human beings from the people that don’t like them, you are in trouble: politically, intellectually, and ethically. Lets act like polite grownups from this point out and explain only our own beliefs and behaviors. Mom would want us to.
Ms. Dora, you have a strange silence. Do you know Paula S?
Glen Beck’s question was long overdue. We know that radical Islam is a serious threat to the safety of people in places like England where 300 or so terror cells are active, and liberals similiar to 5th district voters allowed it to become this way by putting diversity and multiculteralism before common sense and puplic safety. Bleeding Heart is right that Beck’s should have directed some of views to 5th district voters.
We also know that to cut and run in Iraq will only make terrorists stronger and prove to the world that terrorism pays. Keith is very wrong here, I just wonder what motivates this view.
One can only conclude that “Dora” is not a “strawman” but the “stawman”.
Here endith the lesson
xray, what “strange silence”? Contrary to what some like to believe, I am not at my computer all the time. And who is Paula S.? Not a big deal you misread my post, it happens.
Here comes dare2’s enlightened views again. Yeah, all you 5th district voters are aiding and abetting terrorism by voting for Ellison. [gag] And we know what motivates your views dare2, and it isn’t pretty.
“taxi driver” is on, what a great prophecy…..
Are you talking to me?
ARE YOU TALKING TO ME ?
Susanne, it’s not like there’s an outbreak of flag burning and liberals are trying to induce more of it. Since as you point out it’s a form of protest I’d say those who burn it aren’t ashamed they’re angry. They are obviously doing so to get a rise out of others. It doesn’t mean that they hate their country either.
A symbol isn’t as important to me as upholding the things that our forefathers stood for, like the constitution and habeas corpus. And it’s not about detainees it’s about what we’ve stood for and what others upheld before us. We do not need to give up who we are in order to protect ourselves. We’ve never done it before and we don’t need to start now.
As far as Ellison goes you can’t prove a negative. “Prove to me your not working with our enemies” It’s a set up pure and simple. It’s the point RLW made, you have to prove the positive. So it seems to me that as far as you and some others are concerned all Muslims have to prove they’re not working with the enemy. And so we have our modern day equivilent of the Japanese aversion from WWII.
Dora,
Nice to hear from you again. Thank you for your nasty comment.
Just returning the favor dare2. And yet you have no qualms about insulting liberals, 5th district voters, or Keith Ellison. Go figure.
Look at the trolls run and hide
Dora, your points are well taken. And yes, you sadly pointed out that yes, because Keith is a muslim, and has been involved with an org that is highly questionable, I am very uneasy about him, as many are. I do swear to you though, I really hope he (and I) can get over all that and he can just focus on what he needs to focus on, do a good job representing my interests and MN, and the whole muslim thing becomes a non issue. (as is should be, but its hard)
Dora, the inherent topic of Eric B’s original post could be taken at least two ways, probably more - the obvious grossness of many conservative media types (as stating it from your perspective); or a discussion of the issues behind the interview question. Coming where you;re coming from, I think your perceived the topic as being obviously the first and only that.
I was choosing the latter. When I said it seemed you were trying to change the topic, I meant the topic I was pursuing.
I do choose my words carefully. When I say extreme left, I mean extreme left. And it’s not a distinction without meaning. The recent and ongoing strident discussion within the Minneapolis DFL concerning new school board member Chris Stewart has revealed the reality of the distinction.
(And it’s an interesting moment, by the way; the residue includes a slap in the face for a lot of Minneapolis liberals on the intellectual hollowness and plain incivility of some of their most passionate fellow party members.)
I don’t have objective knowledge others lack. I’m pointing out what I consider pretty unavoidable conclusions based on facts we all have.
And I’m not ever speaking for the left or the extreme left. I’m speaking about them.
After the 2004 election, remember the plethora of commentary from enraged Democrats contemplating secession, wondering how deeply stupid the voters were, etc.? It’s kind of hard to deny what I’m talkign about, it seems to me, when you see something like that. And as with most hate, it came from ignorance on a variety of levels.
There’s almost none of that coming from the vast majority of the right in the wake of 2006.
Thanks for the reminder Paul. Our problems would have been over if all of those LWers would have kept their promises and left after the 2004 election.
“ELLISON: Well, let me tell you, the people of the Fifth Congressional District know that I have a deep love and affection for my country. There’s no one who is more patriotic than I am. And so, you know, I don’t need to — need to prove my patriotic stripes.”
This is a lie. You can’t be patriotic and have close ties to CAIR (which openly wants the Constitution done away with and institute an Islamic Sharia law government) at the same time.
Charlie Q says
And surely, under Glenn Beck’s very astute and sophisticated questioning, Ellison was going to spill the beans.
Watch the clip to see how Ellison reacted to this idiocy. He laughed. Some terrorist.
Charlie, the reaction was clearly the result of intense training. The evildoers have been studying our techniques and training themselves to circumvent the known & published tactics. What you observed is proof of their sophistication.
Xray, are you going to post the text of the memo from the CEO of Walden? Come on, post it and let us see what she said.
Dora -
I do realize that my role on this blog of being the guy talking about patterns of thinking on the liberal side of the equation is irritating to some on that side, even all on that side from time to time.
I think some of that irritation stems from how liberals assume talking about ‘the other side’ in a general, highly critical way is their turf. If you look at comments form a whole lot of liberals here, over the months, you’ll see it’s just kind of an accepted thing.
On this specific topic as I see it - the permissibility of asking hard questions about Islam or aspects of Islam or groups identifying themselves as spokepersons for Islam - the “patterns of thinking on the left” is particularly germane.
And let me state clearly, knowing nothing else of Glenn Beck:
Given that he seems to have been basing his question mainly on the troubling-if-true survey results he mentioned immediately after; and given that he made an attempt to phrase his question as “can you understand how I and others might want instincitvely to ask this question;” I see not much wrong with it.
And I see the reaction of a guy like Keith Olbermann as being significantly intellectually dishonest. And the way Keith Olbermann is achieving hero status on the left is very troubling. I just don’t like cynical dishonesty being worshipped.
As I’ve also said elsewhere: I don’t see Keith Ellison’s relationship to CAIR in as cataclysmic a sense as some otheres here. I believe Keith may be a work in progress who needs to be able to hear from everyone, not just the passionate activists who selected him for us at that small convention in spring.
My take on the question and Ellison’s answer is simple:
Ellison has passed the first test of a politician: If you don’t like the question, give the answer to a different question.
Do we know any more than we did before the question was asked? Of course not. We’re not intended to. That’s how politics is played.
If a politician’s life can be measured by how long it takes for too many people to hate him, Ellison will have a long political life.
Sorry 433, I made it all up.
RLW and Dora,
Let’s go back to McVeigh and the Branch Davidians, and how they relate to Islamic terrorists. I heard a very good point on Dennis Prager today. (I asked, have you listened to him? By the way, I appreciate ya’ll not chewing my head off and trying to cram down liberal ‘messages’
I am scared of Phoenix Woman! I get her point, her point being she is frothing at the mouth. Really, most dumb redneck ex military republicans like me would get, uh, turned off by that. I don’t have liberal friends, so appreciate a blog where I can talk to some, so please just respond to me and let me know what you think without foaming. Trust me; everyone in the US is pissed about something.
So McVeigh and the Branch Davidians used the Bible to retaliate against the ‘sinners’ much what the Islamic Jihadists are doing. They are killing in the name of God. But the point is, Jesus never said, convert the infidels, and if they don’t covert, subrogate them, or if they oppose that, go to war against them. Mohammed did say that. And that is what the terrorists are going on. Yes, there were horrible things done in the name of Christianity, but that was man’s own twisted ambitions. Jesus never uttered one word of violence or retaliation or revenge against those who did not accept him. He just gave them a million chances. I can’t think of any Christian who would support McVeigh, or the Davidians, and would instead condemn them and be angry that Christianity/Jesus ever got pulled into it. Why aren’t the Muslims condemning anything? Could it be that what Mohammad said, they believe, and even though might not like the modern day outcome (terrorism) well, ya know, Mohammad did say that…
Thoughts please?!
P.S Dora, I do appreciate your posts, good to hear from you and your views. Best wishes.
Susanne, have you studied Islam and Mohammed?
No, I have not studied either formally, only on the streets informally. Insignificant as this is, I do have a Koran, and give me some time to pull the verses out of there. I have also spent time in Kuwait, Jordan, Israel, and in the “occupied terrorities” of Israel, (Palestine) (as a US soldier) and have heard much that reinforces what I just stated about what Mohammed said. It is their beef…I am sorry for asking this, because now I sound like a bumbling Glenn Bleck, (God Bless him for bumbling, at least he asked the question) how can Keith, as a Muslim, not support what Mohammed says in the Koran?
Thank you Dora for your patience with with my questions, Susanne
I have not studied Islam or Mohammed. I only know what I have read others more familiar with Islam and the Koran than I am say. And they do not say this: convert the infidels, and if they don’t covert, subrogate them, or if they oppose that, go to war against them.Since you have a Koran, can you pull the passage that says that?
Do you support everything it says in the Bible? Glenn Beck didn’t ask Keith if he supports what Mohammed says in the Koran. He asked him to prove he wasn’t working with our enemies. That’s quite a different question.
damn, Dora, me and the rest of the infidels are in for it! I looked, it’s there…
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
….. martyrs…. Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39
I’m sorry Susanne but other than the passage about not taking Jews and Christians as friends I don’t really see that much difference in some of the things the Bible says.
I am not a scholar but I did go to a religious school from K-8. Missouri Synod Lutheran. Lots of religious classes and Sunday School and church. The Mo. Synod, the way I was taught, is the more hellfire and damnation group, believes more in an “angry” God, and interprets the Bible quite literally.
If you don’t believe in a Christian God you’ll go to hell, there cetainly is alot of “slaying” of people in the Bible for their transgressions, the soul of believers lives on after they die and their “great reward” is heaven where all needs are provided for, there’s also an “Onward Christian Soldiers” mentality throughout the Bible.
The point is that the Bible is not all peace and love either. You can pull passages from it that supports both peace and love and anger and retribution. And Christians do pull out the anger and retribution parts to condemn and oppress groups.
You are willing to say this about Christians yet don’t extend the same to Muslims: Yes, there were horrible things done in the name of Christianity, but that was man’s own twisted ambitions. There were plenty of Muslims who condemned the acts of 9/11 and who say that their religion is one of peace and love. So they have the same issue that I pointed out about the Bible. You’ll find both.
Perhaps what it really boils down to is which you choose to follow. McVeigh and others who kill in the name of Chrisitianity are not following the peace and love part any more than Muslims who kill in the name of Islam. Both are wrong. But I won’t condemn all of them for what the extreme elements say and do. I will condemn the extremists who bring religion into justifiying their own acts of hatred whether they are Christian or Muslim.
I was raised Mo Synod too, Dora! And went to a Mo Synod school through 3rd grade! How did we manage to avoid the terror recruiters? Pretty darn lucky, it seems to me.
And va-voom, I’m gone for the day.
I would just like add that for all of the debate over ellison’s connections to CAIR, we overlook the fact that Bush has a good, strong connection to CAIR as well (http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2006/sep/18/mn_05_president_bush_appeared_with_awad_before_keith_ellison_did). Now, is it fair to ask Bush to prove that he isn’t a terrorist? I mean, it is a legitimate question… and my favorite picture — Bush holding hands with a Saudi Prince (http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2005/04/25/image690875x.jpg). I think we really do need to ask who is on America’s side, and who is against us — and it looks more and more that Ellison is with us while Bush is against us.
Dora, the first four suras I mentioned say it all:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
And where are the Muslims that condemn 9/11? Where are the protests against what is happening? All I see is CAIR seething about taxi drivers who be allowed not to transport blind eye dogs. All I see is CAIR expoding their heads. I only see Muslims with bloody american flags in the middle east, and their leaders talking death and hellfire to America, and cartoon drawings of our President burning, in the mideast and down to Indonesia.
Yes, you are right, I don’t extend what I hae read in the Koran to Christianity, because there is nothing but rampage in the Koran. And where are the feminist to support this war? Islam + women = suckstobeyou
Thanks again Dora, you make me think.
gordonsowner -
That’s an old point, well-covered. It definitely has not been “overlooked.”
Anyway -
Read starting around pg. 8. The topic is Omar Shahin, the most vocal of the imams in yesterday’s airline incident here in Mpls. Nihad Awad of CAIR also appears around the same section, related to the Islamic Associatioon for Palestine.
This is the kind of thing you can sometimes get by reading Powerline, by the way; not by reading the Star Trib, though, at least not yet. This kind of background on Shahin seems at least somewhat pertinent to the story; actual inveitigation on-line is required, though. And curiosity, too, that also is required.
Susanne, I’m sorry but those 4 are not very different than what I learned about those who don’t believe in God. And as I pointed out, slaying people for their transgressions was not uncommon in the Bible.
Google “muslims condemn 9/11″ and you’ll see.
You think the feminists should support the war b/c now the women in Iraq are better off? Susanne, have you read anything about what’s happened to the women in Iraq? There’s a blog from a woman in Iraq called “Baghdad Burning”. Go check out her archives as to her opinions of what’s happened. Woman fare much better under a secular government which means keeping all religions out of it.
I’d venture to say Susanne that whether you read the Bible or the Koran you’ll find things that support your beliefs about it.
Thanks for the homework again Dora, let me see, will respond later, appreciate your voice. But hey, I guess what I should refer to more to is the women in Afghanistan, how we helped those women is a success story, Iraqi women, like you said, lets look at that here…Susanne PS Saddam may have been secular but he was a ego maniac telling the world he had WMD bastard. None of the women in the Kurdish area who survived his gas attacks would say differently.
Susanne, please update your information about the women in Afghanistan.
Women’s lives ‘no better’ in new Afghanistan
Yes he was a bastard and killed many of his own people.
I don’y blame the US or anybody for trying to make life tolerable for islamic women. I only blame Keith’s religion, Islam.
Susanne, as I said, women do better outside of the constraints of any religion. I don’t happen to believe that women should be subservient to their husbands. But there are Christians who do believe that. I don’t like that any religion is used as a justification for demeaning or oppressing groups of people.
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately the main stream media, to include the UK, only reports the negative, it is what sells. Trust me on this ( I can provide links also) that the women in that county are better without the Islamic Taliban rule, and actually are getting healthcare and can attend school. I am very sure about this, certain for the record, regarding Afghani women, very sure first hand. Regarding Iraqi women, I just have to go on news reports. I have friends there now, and they say it’s all a toss up regarding what is going to happen in Iraq but at least the women can vote. It is almost like since all this stuff is happening in Iraq, that the woman thing is ‘oh by the way…” there are bigger things to prove, or do, or blow up. I don’t trust the main stream media to much. I guess how does this now relate to Eric’s big question? I think Eric should buy the beer, that is how that relates.
You know Susanne, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan. Just last week the US commander there asked for more equipment for the Afghan Army to fight them. Afghanistan is not a “success story” I’m sorry to say. It could have been if we hadn’t put so many resources into Iraq instead.
Dora,
The Taliban and other Muslim terrorist groups wouldn’t be so strong if liberals in America weren’t continually bad mouthing United States policy which made anti-US forces stronger and more credible.
Riiight dare2. It has to do with what liberals say not with the failed US policy of the Bush administration. Bush and his beloved Def. Sec. diverted troops and money from Afghanistan where the Taliban actually were (and still are and are now making a comeback) to Iraq and fulfilled every one of the predictions of what could go wrong. Your lack of critical thinking ability is astounding. Don’t blame the actions, just blame those who didn’t agree with the actions. Simple conclusions for the simple minded.
Dora,
If the liberal media and politicians weren’t so determined to rile up the Muslim world by hammering away at such things as wrong doings by US forces, etc. we would be in much better shape in Iraq. If the left behaved that badly during WWII, would probably would have lost the war. War is hell and bad things happen, but to exploit them for political gain is simply dispicable.
dare2, sorry but there just is no other way to put it, you’re an idiot if you think that’s why things in Iraq are so bad. But that’s what you get when you let Fox News and Rush Limbaugh do your thinking for you.
Susanne, you need guidance from an Islamic scholar at this point in your self-education. As one myself, I find your ignorance profound. To rely on “what you heard” in the streets in the US is not very scientific a method of information getting nor is assuming women are treated badly on one side of the Earth and not the other. Perhaps your quest should begin within before you start spewing your misdirected accusations. Furthermore, while you may spend your night on anti-Islamic websites reviewing incongruities in the Koran (much of which was referring to a culture and time during its revelation) I implore you to spend equally as much time on Christian or Jewish debunking sites. What you are doing to yourself by surrounding yourself with these myths in building a layered compost heap of nonsense upon nonsense by which you hope to support your racism — bottomline.
I am Zoidberg!
Hey Jimmy, what I heard in the streets are on the streets in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East, what other streets overseas, ya see, I actually was there. Guidance from an Islamic scholar? I would not like to attend suicide bombing 101, so go yourself.
Are you kidding me? Women in Islamic countires are not treated like beasts? Hello?
And best yet, Jimmy, Rascist? Since when is Islam a race? You sound like a moron. islam is a religion, not a race. PS I am BLACK
Too bad you didn’t avail yourself of all the educational opportunities that the military provides Ms. Infidel. By the way, where are those links you said you could provide about how well the women are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Jimmy, as I said to Ms. Infidel, the Bible has just as many incongruities making it easy to find whatever point you’re trying to bolster by using it. People like Ms. Infidel don’t understand that being a Christian is living like one not by spouting Bible passages and then living the opposite way. They are the modern day Pharisee’s.
I provided links on the later blogs, and all I got was ////crickets chirping// from you.
Sad you think military and ex military people who put down their lives and provide you with the opportunity to say crap about THEM don’t have redy links for you to prove they did get a formal education…
puke…..
gotta go, I so have to puke about Dora’ comment.
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