Battleground Suburbia: Edina mayor shifts parties, may run for Ramstad’s seat

October 5th, 2007 – 1:09 PM by Mark Brunswick

Jim Hovland, the mayor of Edina, is a good example of the conflicted political nature of the metro area’s western suburbs. A long-time Republican, he is not shy about expressing hishovland.jpg frustrations over what he sees as the extreme nature of the current Republican party, calling it “a marching progression to a more consolidated base and a smaller party.”

Hovland supports abortion rights and is an advocate of mass transit.

He’s also thinking about running for Congress to replace Jim Ramstad, who has announced plans to retire after nine terms in Congress.

And if Hovland runs, he’ll be running as a Democrat.

Much to his surprise, Hovland was invited to a get-together with members of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Fourth District Congresswoman Betty McCollum and her chief of staff. They laid out some of the complexities of a potential congressional run in the rapidly changing Third District and what the DCCC could and could not do to help him.

“For years, I would characterize myself as a moderate-type Republican,” Hovland explained. “Over time, I felt like the Republican Party had moved farther and farther away from my philosophical beliefs. I find myself consistently philosophically aligning myself with Democrats,” said Hovland, a lawyer who has been on the Edina City Council for 11 years and mayor for the last three.

Those feelings have particularly manifested themselves over issues such as regional transit and transportation funding and local government aid. Hovland has done work with the Regional Council of Mayors and is the chairman of the
I-494 Corridor Commission. He’s also a member of the of the Metropolitan Council’s Transportation Advisory Board.

Hovland said he was surprised when the Democrats came a’ courtin. He joined some other potential Democratic candidates and state elected officials, including Rep. Steve Simon, Rep. Melissa Hortman, and Sen. Terri Bonoff. (Hortman has since announced that she would not be running.)

“I’ve loved doing stuff for our town and for our region and I like trying to push things along to make it a better place to live,” Hovland said.

“I consider myself service driven so when people start calling me from my town or people like Betty called and said ‘Would you think about this?’, first of all I’m kind of startled. First off it was something I never expressed to anybody, that I had sort of evolved this way over the past couple years.”

Hovland said he will spend the next couple of weeks going to DFL Senate District chairs and meetings to test the waters about how he might fit in.

“Am I the kind of guy that they would consider having me run for a congressional district seat or am I just wasting their time and my time?” he said.

Bill Harper, McCollum’s chief of staff, said no one is making any endorsements of a Hovland candidacy, but added that Democrats believe he could effectively fit into the make-up of the district, a moderate suburban district with a pronounced independent streak where voters often seem driven to support a candidate rather than an ideology.

“He’s kind of the Democratic side of Jim Ramstad. He comes off as kind of a new Democrat,” Harper said. “People who know him who are Democrats respect him.”

In 2006, Democrat Amy Klobuchar won the Senate seat in the district with 56 percent of the vote and Ramstad retained his seat with 65 percent of the vote.

“The profile of the district makes the hardcore ideological Democrat or the hardcore Republican a bit out of sync with the moderate, centrist district,” he said.

As for the potential defection, state Republicans are not surprised, saying Hovland has not been an active member of the party.

“It sounds like he’s just a very ambitious guy who smells an opportunity here,” said Minnesota Republican Party spokesman Mark Drake.

“It is a district that is very competitive and we’re going to work hard and can’t take anything for granted,” Drake acknowledged. To his knowledge, though, Drake said the Republicans weren’t actively recruiting any Democrats to run.

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90 Responses to "Battleground Suburbia: Edina mayor shifts parties, may run for Ramstad’s seat"

bsimon says:

October 5th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

Interesting. Is Mayor Hovland a snivelling RINO that deserves nothing more than contempt for voicing concerns that his party has moved right, or is he a living, breathing example of the point others (ahem) have tried to make here that the GOP is losing appeal for swing voters looking for rational solutions to problems we face?

Jay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:31 pm

At very least I believe it cements my contention that being a “republican” in Minnesota, probably makes you a Democrat almost anywhere else in the country, without sacrificing any personal views or beliefs. I don’t know much about Hovland, but he is likely a moderate something-or-other, and realizes 08 will be an uphill battle for anyone with “GOP” after their name on the ballot. Why not go ahead and make the change? Seems like he is likely a good fit for that district, and this state…..along the same lines as other moderates like Ramstad, Peterson, and party-switchers like Norm.

If he supports abortion rights, he has little hope of gaining acceptance by the GOP at the national level (unfortunately), just as a pro life stance basically throws you to the curb as a democrat. I say, good for him.

Jay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

lose the mustache though.

Dora says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

A pro-life stance doesn’t throw you to the curb nationally as a Democrat. I believe Harry Reid is pro-life for one. The difference is that a pro life Republican can’t accept that he can hold his own personal views without trying to force them on others.

bsimon says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:49 pm

“lose the mustache though.”

can’t argue with that

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:56 pm

The Republicans aren’t moving to the right, many are moving too far to the liberal left. What’s interesting though is how far to the extreme left the democrat party have moved. JFK would be considered a conservative today and wouldn’t be welcome in the democrat party, much like the terrible way Joe Leiberman has been treated.

bsimon says:

October 5th, 2007 at 2:59 pm

dare, did you see the link I posted on the other thread to the David Brooks piece today? He’s the token conservative over at the NYT. Its good stuff, you may find it enlightening:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

“To put it bluntly, over the past several years, the G.O.P. has made ideological choices that offend conservatism’s Burkean roots. This may seem like an airy-fairy thing that does nothing more than provoke a few dissenting columns from William F. Buckley, George F. Will and Andrew Sullivan. But suburban, Midwestern and many business voters are dispositional conservatives more than creedal conservatives. They care about order, prudence and balanced budgets more than transformational leadership and perpetual tax cuts. It is among these groups that G.O.P. support is collapsing.”

UR_phoney says:

October 5th, 2007 at 3:29 pm

KKboot,
I thought you may have been given the double boot as Brimn and Tomriggs2 did from here site as well as the other place if you know what I mean.
Haven’t seen ya on for a while. Hope all is well. saha

Matty says:

October 5th, 2007 at 3:39 pm

I had the pleasure of meeting Mayor Hovland recently while working on a project for the City of Edina.

He seemed like a fine guy to me. He was very supportive of a multi-modal transportation system which is the top issue for many these days. I didn’t know what his party affiliation was, but I didn’t really didn’t care. He understands what’s needed in the transportation realm and that was good enough for me. I think he’d be a good fit for the 3rd.

I have to vote for the mustache, however. It’s not a John Waters style pencil mustache, but it’s cool nonetheless. It takes guts to wear a mustache.

Jay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 3:47 pm

Dora: “The difference is that a pro life Republican can’t accept that he can hold his own personal views without trying to force them on others.”

Democrats try to force their personal views on the public just as republicans do….its a wash. I don’t see any “difference” there at all.

And you’re right that there are some Democrats who are pro life. I did not intend to claim that there weren’t any. In fact, I believe Peterson is pro life. I believe it makes it more difficult to get an endorsement and/or support from either major party if you happen to differ on that single BS issue that is helping to ruin our political system. More difficult relative to just aligning yourself with whatever party embraces your view anyway.

kkbootedguy says:

October 5th, 2007 at 3:57 pm

UR,

I think we need our own homeland. We keep getting booted. SAHA.

Boy is this blog LAME. Come one people lets get crackin’.

UR_phoney says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pm

KK
Local politics is as exciting and pulling ticks from a hound.
I’m off, see ya around next week

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:03 pm

kkbootedguy,

I really don’t care what his sexual orientation is, but he shows favoritism to the gay community such as making Bonnie the lesbian a Fire Chief above more qualified candidates, and we deserve to what motivates his decisions.

Here is a challenge for you or anyone else. R.T. is said to be a happily married man. Please send a link with his wife’s picture on it. I have never seen him with her at any event, and as far as I know, there is no picture of her anywhere.

kkbootedguy says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:10 pm

“I really don’t care what his sexual orientation is…”

Sure you do. Otherwise why bring it up? Im not saying Bonnie B was the most qualified, but I dont know she wasnt. I know she made stupid mistakes but do you have inside knowledge that someone was passed over? Or is that another assumption of yours?

Jay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:13 pm

dare2′s challenge: “Here is a challenge for you or anyone else. R.T. is said to be a happily married man. Please send a link with his wife’s picture on it. I have never seen him with her at any event, and as far as I know, there is no picture of her anywhere.”

I’m a (mostly) happily married man. Find a link to a picture of my wife. I don’t get where you are coming from with that.

UR_phoney says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:23 pm

dar2say.
did I win?

kkbootedguy says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Come to think of it Ive never seen a picture of Pawlenty’s wife. He MUST be gay.

kkbootedguy says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Dare2,

Where’s the picture of YOUR wife on YOUR website?

UR_phoney says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:25 pm

dare2say,
I’m not sure thats her. the photo is taken at a Ukrainian convention.
see ya

kkbootedguy says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:28 pm

Besides, Having a wife is irrelevant to a persons sexuality. Ted Haggard? Oh yeah he’s a conservative Bush counselor so that doesnt count.

UR_phoney says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:31 pm

KKboot,
here’s another one for ya.

From the assoc. press:

Scandal Brewing at Oral Roberts U.

Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors’ expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter’s senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay.

She is accused of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on clothes, awarding nonacademic scholarships to friends of her children and sending scores of text messages on university-issued cell phones to people described in the lawsuit as “underage males.”

now I really must go.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

UR_phoney,

Is that the best picture you can come up with? You didn’t prove anything.

Jay,

Are you a mayor of a major U.S. city? I wouldn’t expect any pictures of your wife then.

If R.T. is happily married, there should be thousands of pictures of R.T. and his wife floating around, just like any other married politician.

Again, I really don’t care if he’s gay or not, but he should be a phoney about it.

In my opinion, the only reason be gave Bonnie B, the fire chief job before more qualified and honorable candidates was because she is a lesbian. This horrible decision ended up costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Jay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

“Are you a mayor of a major U.S. city? I wouldn’t expect any pictures of your wife then.”

But does it make me gay?

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 4:47 pm

Jay,

No it doesn’t.

I would think that if R.T. wasn’t gay and was happily married, the evidence to support the truth would be flowing in, but it isn’t.

Again, I don’t care if he’s gay or not. He’s a terrible mayor either way. being a phoney makes it worse.

Cash N. Carey says:

October 5th, 2007 at 5:07 pm

Dora,

Yesterday you were complaining about how posters were just attacking others. And today you post what? Typical liberal hypocrit. You are the predictable one.

whatdidisay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 7:10 pm

I didn’t know Donald Sutherland was mayor of Edina ?

Hey is Bill going to break his 970 word single post record tonight ?

Bill Prendergast says:

October 5th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

I don’t have a thousand words to say about this, whatdid.

I think most of the major points on this story have already been made:

1) This guy, via his rhetoric in the comment, is laying himself open to the RINO charge. But apparently he isn’t afraid that Jason Lewis types identifying him as such can cost him the election–as in years past.

2) The mustache is a big mistake. It may just be the photo, but it looks like it’s two different colors. In fact, it looks like it’s two different mustaches–it looks like a little “Hitler” mustache is sitting on top of a larger blond “folksinger” type mustache. Maybe this is supposed to represent the man’s “willingness to listen to all views or something.” But I think it’s a mistake.

2)

whatdidisay says:

October 5th, 2007 at 7:40 pm

Billy Its salt & “Hitlery”.

Honest to god where is my prescription medicine. It’s not worth living knowing there are people out there who think like you Bill. Troubling even more that you can on and on and on and really never say anything new.

Dora says:

October 5th, 2007 at 8:17 pm

Your attempt to hijack the thread with your ridiculous comments won’t work DTSI.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 8:41 pm

You’re right Dora,

Let’s get back to discussing how far to the loony left the democrat party has drifted of the past few years.

Bill Prendergast says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:06 pm

It is weird though. I mean–seven years after Bush was elected with a GOP Congress firmly in place, MN trending GOP–

this guy from *Edina*, of all places, is flipping–and he doesn’t seem to care about retaliation by local conservatives. Isn’t that something? I mean–until about year ago or so, if a GOP guy flipped (and why would he?) he’d be dogmeat to conservatives. Brodkorb and MDE would come after such a person with all the dirt they could find, the local talk radio guys promoting the GOP–would eat alive a GOP politician who flipped to the Dems, that guy would be gone.

Yet here’s a guy who announcing, “well, I guess I *was* what was called a RINO, but now I’m gonna be a Democrat.” That’s like blowing a raspberry in the face of the conservative media and the GOP. And this candidate’s convinced that he can afford to do that, without meaningful retaliation from the conservatives or the GOP.

Maybe it’s the Pawlenty thing; where TP’s approval ratings reach an all-time high after he calls in the special session and *works with* the Dems to get the flood aid through. Maybe that’s what convinces this mayor that the GOP can’t punish him for saying FY to the GOP conservatives.

His city, Edina–that’s about four miles or so from TP’s old district of Eagan, isn’t it? Aren’t these relatively wealthy white suburbs we’re talking about here? And this mayor’s decided the best way to stay in office is to become a *Democrat*? That’s a very cold wind that’s blowin’ for conservatives, man.

Justin C. Adams says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:24 pm

I think he needs to lose his moustache, but I think he is a good candidate.

I think we had a lawn sign for him in his first race and that I did lit drops on his behalf back in ’96.

My family and upbringing would have been discribed as Eisenhower Republican — we were social liberals who believed in balanced budgets and pay as you go — and both my parents were claiming to be GOPers until Clinton.

Clinton, of course, was also an Eisenhower Republican, so it makes sense that they changed their party identity at that time. I was a little slow to come around on Clinton, perhaps because my parents weren’t.

I think that my parents are extremely typical of 3rd district voters, who want limited government but active and effective government where it is being applied, who aren’t moved by abortion or gun control but care about fiscal responsibility, good public services like education, and most of all, good policy over good politics.

And I think Mr. Hoveland is a great match for this district.

I think he should be honest about the liability of the GOP label – that it is not in ascendence now, and he’ll be ok with 3rd district Republicans – he won’t win among them, but he’ll take a sizable chunk, especially from Edina itself, where he is better known.

In this very closely contested district, just a few points which can be carried from one camp to the other is what is needed to win. Mr. Hoveland can carry 5-10 points from the GOP base as his personal base, owing to his very long service, and he should not have a difficult time winning as a DFLer.

I think it was quite a good calculation on his part and on the part of the D triple C.

Justin C. Adams says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:27 pm

Yes, but of different cities, BP. Eagan is like Woodbury.

Edina is like Minnetonka.

St. Paul Suburbanites are a little more country than Minneapolis suburbanites, I think.

Justin C. Adams says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:28 pm

I don’t mean that in any kind of derrogatory way either – it just has seemed, in my experience, that eastern suburban rich kinds have horses while western suburban rich kids have sailboats.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

What are Hovland’s views on the war on terror? I could support him if he had similiar views to Joe Leiberman, but if he is a cut and run liberal, it would be sad to see him elected.

G.S.A.H.A. says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

There is no finer view on terrorism than Joe Lieberman.

G.S.A.H.A. says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:50 pm

“this guy from *Edina*, of all places, is flipping–and he doesn’t seem to care about retaliation by local conservatives. Isn’t that something?”

Who gives a flying fck what some dipsht from Edina thinks or is doing. the war on terror is a national/world wide event and what is going on in Edina is nothing more than a A$$ stain on the shorts of history.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 5th, 2007 at 11:58 pm

Isn’t it sad that Joe Leiberman was dis-owned by the liberal democrats for his views on the war on terror? JFK would be in the same boat if he were around today.

G.S.A.H.A. says:

October 6th, 2007 at 12:01 am

JFK as well as Barry Goldwater are rolling over in their graves.
Both parties have abandoned their princeples for the almighty dollar and power.

Bill Prendergast says:

October 6th, 2007 at 12:08 am

Thanks for the insight on Edina v. Eagan, Justin. So Edina’s the rich kids? Like Minnetonka? Is that what you mean?

Royinoslo says:

October 6th, 2007 at 2:17 am

Am I the only one here who thinks that DTSI is a put-on, a closet liberal with a zany sense of humor? A weird strategy to out-bufoon a Movement already rank with bufoonery? Just wondering.
The gist of today’s BQ is the Rino-purification concept in the Republican party, fallout from the possible breakup of the grand Reagan coalition of the Greedy and the Intolerant (er, sorry, I mean the economic and social conservatives). I’ve been waiting for this breakup for 25 years, and I’m under no illusion that it’s a done deal. I’ve had high hopes before, but maybe this time it’s for real. Maybe it took that third element, the Neocons, to break up the Grand Old Party.

Royinoslo says:

October 6th, 2007 at 2:18 am

Keep the ‘stache, add a beard.

Mike B. says:

October 6th, 2007 at 8:15 am

The zealots of both major parties have made many of us independents.
One sure way to spot a lousy politician is when a check of their voting record shows them in lock step with their party. That pretty much says their district or state has no representation.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 6th, 2007 at 9:57 am

Roy,

What do you have against capitalism anyway?

Justin C. Adams says:

October 6th, 2007 at 10:54 am

Yes, that is true, Edina is rich kids (though I personally am from the “wrong side of the tracks”, where we lived more like a family from the ironically named Richfield”).

But what I was saying is that you get a Kennedy or Bachmann in the east — it is not possible to elect someone who is pro-choice there, and school referrendums are defeated routinely, whereas in the 3rd, you get Ramstad or John Benson, real moderates, pro-choice/life doesn’t matter as much and the referrendums almost always pass.

There are slightly different GOP bases, I think, between eastern ans western suburbs, is what I was saying.

parthian says:

October 6th, 2007 at 11:21 am

Perhaps we could call it a difference between Thinking Repubs and Talk Radio Repubs.

But the Western exurbs are all Talk Radio Repubs, the home of conservative plebian cogs like 2D.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 6th, 2007 at 1:02 pm

Partisan,

Without talk radio, we would only get a leftist view of the world from the liberal media. Liberals have failed miserably in their own attempts at talk radio, so now people like Mrs. Clinton want to silence it with the unFairness Docterine.

Dora says:

October 6th, 2007 at 2:50 pm

oh sure DTSI, because there are no right wingers on television, in the newspapers, or writing books. More drivel from the king of Talk Radio Republicans.

Bill Prendergast says:

October 6th, 2007 at 2:53 pm

Well, I live in Stillwater, which was trending GOP when I moved here. But it was GOP in the sense of Ronald Reagan. That’s how Bachmann won her seat in the State Senate, presenting herself a conservative in the tradition of Ronald Reagan. But in fact, she was a kind of “secret agent” for James Dobson types; the national religious right. Her evangelical supporters crashed the nomination event and displaced the veteran Republican, substituting Bachmann.

It wasn’t until years later that news of “what she really was” began to circulate among the Stillwater area voters. After the word got out, she lost districts where she was known best, but attained Congress anyway, because a lot of voters (including GOP voters) don’t know about her being a creature of the religious right. (The voters who *do* know that she’s a creature of the religious right are numerous in the northern and western part of the 6th district.)

So that’s why local politics outside the 6th is so confusing to me; I live in a district that is very divided: the 6th, unlike the other districts, is a huge area that contains Minnesotans who believe very different things about the world. It was carved out so that a minority of Democrats vote in the same election as a majority of GOP and religious conservatives in the west and north.

I’m not sure, in the present environment, that my Congresswoman could be elected in any other Metro area district *except* the 6th. The significance of that is in remembering that Bachmann is a freshman who won her first term by a fine margin in the 6th, in the year of the Dem tsunami–despite being heavily outspent by the Dems. The reason she came in so strong in this district and would do so poorly in other GOP fiefs is because of the kind of Republicans who live in the different neighborhoods.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 6th, 2007 at 7:41 pm

Dora,

Except for Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, the media is virually 100% liberal, even taxpayer funded PBS.

Dora says:

October 6th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

DTSI, you think any media that doesn’t spew the GOP talking points 100% of the time is liberal.

whatdidisay says:

October 6th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

I read Bills and Dares posts. Then I thank god my parents weren’t cousins.

Cash N. Carey says:

October 6th, 2007 at 9:15 pm

Dora,

Still attacking people hey? When are you going to post something substantial?I am excited a RINO is now a DINO. Life is good.

God bless you Gov. TPaw. Congrats on your high approval ratings!

whatdidisay says:

October 6th, 2007 at 9:35 pm

You guys know what Edina stands for don’t ya……

“Everyday I Need Attention !!!!! E.D.I.N.A.

My parents called people who lived in Edina ‘Cake Eaters”

My cousins lived in Edina when I was growing up. It was great opening presents at Christmas over there. My parents like gave me “Lite Brite” for my “main” present. Meanwhile my cousins where getting the newest electronics of the day.

Dora says:

October 6th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

Are you that obsessed with what I say that you can’t post without mentioning me, CNC?

Bill Prendergast says:

October 6th, 2007 at 10:30 pm

You may say what you like about me, whatdid. But I will not have you dissing “LiteBrite.”

Royinoslo says:

October 7th, 2007 at 4:56 am

DTSI,
I like capitalism–when there is real democracy along with it. Giving people choices is the measure of a society’s greatness and wealth.
Capitalism along with social democracy– that’s what I saw in my two week recent trip on the trains in Germany. What a great country. Old and modern, clean, superb infrastructure, transportation system, great social safety net.
I recommend every American go there, you’ll see that there are other models of a free society where some of the rough edges are smoothed out.
The prices in Germany are reasonable (well, if only the dollar were stronger).

Justin C. Adams says:

October 7th, 2007 at 10:18 am

“Everyday I Need Attention !!!!! E.D.I.N.A.

Absolutely correct. Though, really, shouldn’t all kids, ideally, have attention every day?

My parents called people who lived in Edina ‘Cake Eaters”

That’s what we called ourselves, proudly. Not sure of the genisis of this saying – is it Marie Antoinette, do you think?

My cousins lived in Edina when I was growing up. It was great opening presents at Christmas over there. My parents like gave me “Lite Brite” for my “main” present. Meanwhile my cousins where getting the newest electronics of the day.

We didn’t get our Nintendo until after Tetris at my house, but I have to second Bill – the Lite Brite was one of my most cherished childhood toys.

Justin C. Adams says:

October 7th, 2007 at 10:39 am

Choice is good and all, and Capitalism has some very great things about it, but the question wasn’t “what do you like about capitalism”.

Surely you can come up with some problems with Capitalism. Surely you are not afraid that DTSI will think of you as a communist if you point out the historical reasons for regulated markets, the advantages of limited government ownership of industries or public resources (oil reserves or a nation’s waterways, or transportation infrastructure systems are good, moderate examples) – I assure you, he thinks of us as communists anyway.

There are far too many problems with Capitalism to discuss in this space. The first is that capitalism is enherently despotic – might makes right in capitalism, and the power that the mighty control is used primarially to further consolidate that power.

What goes along with this is that in unregulated capitalism, economic stratification quickly occurs, with the produce of society accumulating to those who have capital, who use this produce to acquire more capital and thereby acquire more of the produce. This of course reduces the amount of produce that the producers themselves can consume. Even with fairly robust regulation, extreme stratification occurs – in our society, one percent of the population controls nearly half of the national wealth.

Capitalism rewards immoral behaviour as a person who can compete on unequal terms (i.e. who cheats) will end up with a better result than a person who acts honestly. Capitalism relies on usury, which is much more reviled by the old and new testiment than, say, homosexuality is.

Capitalism in it’s late stages leads to imperialism due to the law of diminishing marginal returns. As money chases money, within a closed system (say, within domestic US markets), it requires more money to chase less over time. When this return is too slight, capitalists seek neew markets in order to find higher returns. Those in political control of the new markets might not want our capitalists to dominate them (as they probably would like to domintate them themselves), so we send not only money but coersion (sometimes by way of the world bank and IMF) and eventually military force to chase money and open these markets.

When potential markets take steps that would allow them to resist our capitalists entering them (say, nuclear energy for Iran which would grant them energy independence), we use international organizations and unilateral action to stop them from taking these steps, undermining the rule of law and the “Separate but equal station” which Jefferson claimed god grated to the various nations on our planet.

There are many great things about capitalism too, which I said at the top, and of which, presumably, DTSI is aware. It creates a lot of stuff. It efficiently determines what stuff is wanted and what stuff isn’t. You can get individuals to behave in a predicatable way when they live in a society where the persuit of wealth is the highest virtue.

There are a lot more postives I could go into as well, but as I said, that wasn’t the question.

Matty says:

October 7th, 2007 at 11:25 am

If anyone is wondering why Mayor Hovland would dare switch parties Tom Friedman spells it out nicely in today’s NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/opinion/07friedman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

dare2sayit.com says:

October 7th, 2007 at 11:28 am

I think that for capitalism to work well, the people in society have to have strong moral values similar to what our Founding Fathers had, and we are losing that every day. Do we even teach our children in public schools about the amazing things American’s Founding Fathers and Pioneers acomplished? I don’t think so, they are too busy teaching how evil white men are.

Roy, I’ve been to Germany a few times and really liked it. I see that the new conservative in power is changing things and pulling Germany out of years of high unemployent. Here is a quote from a German website (I’ll sent the link in a minute becuase it will most likely be blocked by the strib for a while):
*********************************
Part of Germany’s perceived competitiveness in the survey was due to economic reforms pursued by Chancellor Angela Merkel, according to the Handelsblatt.

“56 percent of German executives are sure that the government led by Merkel had improved the competitiveness of German companies,” the paper said.
*******************************
Too bad they don’t have ice cubes in that country.

I really want to go to Norway to see when my great grandparents came from, but the high prices there keep me from going.

Royinoslo says:

October 7th, 2007 at 2:59 pm

The German government is led by a coalition of the Conservatives and Social Democrats,dominated by the right side. I met one German who thought the economy is improving because of policies of the previous Socialist government, which shifted right in recent years ala Britain’s Labor party.

But I’d give both sides credit for improving the lot of a great country, a capitalist nation leavened by many social democratic ideas (compared to America) regardless of which party is running it.

Royinoslo says:

October 7th, 2007 at 3:14 pm

Must’ve been that darn soshalist word again, lost a blog entry. Too tired now to reconstruct it (10 p.m.) so suffice it to say that capitalism is well served by a strong democratic political structure, so that people feel empowered to regulate it and to make it bend to society’s interest. Soshul democracy evolved to impede extremes of fascism and commnizm. I don’t know if imperialism is inevitable, or if, as Marx predicted, soshilizm will evolve, or neither or both. g’night.

whatdidisay says:

October 7th, 2007 at 3:59 pm

I mad a HUGE mistake last night bring up that “Lite-Brite” thing. For the last 24 hours I’ve had that the “Lite-Brite” song from the 70’s commercial going on and on in my head.

‘Lite-Brite” making things with lite..something, something…making things with lite-Brite” …It’s been horrible.

By the way I cant understand and it’s the case on all the Red Stars blogs..you cant say social^%$#…..why is that, that’s just weird. Why that word ?

Bill Prendergast says:

October 7th, 2007 at 6:03 pm

whatdid:

1) the missing line is:

“What a sight/makin’ things with LiteBrite.”

2) The reason that you cannot say that word you are talking about without being deleted is that the middle of that word (between the “so” and the final “t”–is the name of a commercial erectile dysfunction aid. The Strib moderation software does not recognize the difference between the two words.

Sadly, the Strib moderation software will permit commenters like UR_phoney to make the kind of remark that it directed at Dora, above. But I trust that Mr. Tice will deal with that when he returns.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 7th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

This filtering is very annoying. You can’t say the word social*st or the name Mohamm*d,maybe the second one has changed by now. Also, the links to many websites are blocked, sometimes permanantly.

Dora says:

October 7th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Ah well Bill, the phoney (it can’t even spell) just demonstrates its level of intellect with that kind of comment.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 7th, 2007 at 7:15 pm

Dora,

At least Mr. Phoney makes a lot more sense than you do.

Dora says:

October 7th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

Of course you would think that DTSI since your own intellect is at the same level as Phoney’s.

Cash N. Carey says:

October 7th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

Dora,

You are the one complaining about the negative tone of posters and yet you haven’t posted anything other than attacks since.

You complain a lot don’t you? Typical liberal, whine when you are held accountable for your words and actions.

God bless you DTSI!

Dora says:

October 7th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

CNC, you don’t even know what the post is about do you? Go read phoney’s comment at 11:57pm. That is what DTSI is defending.
Typical CNC, comment without fulling understanding what you’re commenting about.

Dora says:

October 7th, 2007 at 8:32 pm

Oh and by the way CNC, I know you have trouble with your reading but since you keep bringing it up in every post you make I’ll make it simple for you. I was not “complaining about the negative tone of posters”. I commented on how one poster in particular spent more time critiquing the posters than commenting on the topic. Hmmm, why does that sound familiar???

parthian says:

October 7th, 2007 at 9:23 pm

Does cash n’ crappy ever do anything BUT comment (I use the term loosely) on the perceived “tone” of lib’rul posters?

The weird, meaningless charge of “whining” and “complaining” is about all that can be expected from him—pretty thin, flavorless soup in Chef Cashy’s Konservative Kitchen, I’d say.

Anyway, that’s all I ever seem to see him do, he’s so boringly predictible and banal, and such a tireless parroter of GOoP talking points that I keep wondering how he can tolerate himself…..of well, one cannot hope to understand today’s conservative “mind”.

The immature URphoney has no business posting on a community newspaper’s website. He should be warned once and banned upon a second such display of boobery. Apparently the egregious 2D finds no problem with such childishness—but that’s no great surprise.

UR_phoney says:

October 7th, 2007 at 10:17 pm

“Ah well Bill, the phoney (it can’t even spell)”

Dora the cow, parthian & bill
You attack my user name spelling. I can handle that. The miss spelling is intentional. You see Phony is phony no matter how you spell it. It can be spelled “democrate”(democrap if you prefer) it can be spelled “Liberal”, it can be spelled “I will save the environment by riding a bike”.
If I am banned for my postings, then so be it.
The imaturity is on your side. You are readily offended by the perspectives of others. Not willing to listen. Armed to the teeth for attack of the postings your small world finds offensive without reason. How can I not post to you something that is obviously sick and wrong for you find all things you disagree with to be sick and wrong.
Have a good day.

Dora says:

October 7th, 2007 at 10:34 pm

You readily admit your 11:57 post was vulgar, follow it up with another at 10:00pm, and then say your postings are viewed as offensive without reason? Great logic there phoney. You make childish comments and deny you’re being immature? Didn’t you say you got banned from Kersten’s blog? I can see why.

UR_phoney says:

October 7th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

The without reason reasoning is atrubuted to your unreasoning cackle at anyone of a differing thought.
Your favorite hit is to call them “conservative” or “Christian”.
Getting banned is alright with me. the reincarnation of a soul is what sets it free.
Dora, have fun with this. The blog is a way to move from one spectrum to another without tripping over the logic of your convictions.
Until the next time we meet I wish you the best.

Dora says:

October 8th, 2007 at 8:11 am

It’s posters here who have identified themselves as conservatives who ‘hit’ us liberals here as “anti-christian”.

If my “differing thought” is unreasonable then try focusing on the thought and pointing out why it’s unreasonable instead of focusing on the one who expresses the thought. That is, in fact, what this blog is about.

kkbootedguy says:

October 8th, 2007 at 8:21 am

“Dora,

Except for Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, the media is virually 100% liberal, even taxpayer funded PBS.”

Except for that thing called talk radio. God you’re fake.

kkbootedguy says:

October 8th, 2007 at 8:28 am

“even taxpayer funded PBS”

Yeah that Ken Burns is a flaming liberal isnt he?

Bill Prendergast says:

October 8th, 2007 at 9:10 am

phoney–

Are you saying that you said what you said to Dora (October 6th, 11:57) to defend conservatism and Christianity? Is it your understanding that conservatives and Christians should talk to people like that, to defend their beliefs?

Do you think that the Strib should permit people to send each other messages like that on one of its political discussion blogs? What would be the “down side,” if people here adopted your standard for what constitutes a comment worth sending in?

Mark the sequel says:

October 8th, 2007 at 10:48 am

Phoney,

I disagree with Bill and Dora about just about everything, but they are ultimately good people and don’t deserve the scurrility of the post you put up.

As for the actual content of the post:

“It sounds like he’s just a very ambitious guy who smells an opportunity here,” said Minnesota Republican Party spokesman Mark Drake.

Yep. And not too uncommon. We have an incumbent senator who switched parties not so very long ago. In fact, there’s a lot of that sort of thing in the U.S. Senate – Shelby and Webb both started their careers in the opposite parties.

“It is a district that is very competitive and we’re going to work hard and can’t take anything for granted,” Drake acknowledged. To his knowledge, though, Drake said the Republicans weren’t actively recruiting any Democrats to run.

It’s likely that the Republicans don’t need to draft a Democrat to run in the 3rd. After all, there are a lot of Republicans out there.

Justin C. Adams says:

October 8th, 2007 at 11:51 am

I use Communist to substitue for the banned word.

It is banned because a certain perscription for men is contained fully within it. That would be the CIA.LIST.

Also if you were to talk about a medical professional who focuses on a particular area of medical science, you would be unable to use the word special CIA.LIST.

The Real Me says:

October 8th, 2007 at 12:37 pm

The Republicans are too narrow-based, arch conservative; but I just wish Hovland wouldn’t waste his time with the Democrats.

The extreme left Democrats are not going to truly welcome Hovland into their fold.

Hovland should go Independence Party.

Dora says:

October 8th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

Thanks Mark ts, I appreciate your comment. It’s unfortunate that others can’t separate disagreeing with someones point of view from being disagreeable.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 8th, 2007 at 5:24 pm

Dora says:

“CNC, you don’t even know what the post is about do you? Go read phoney’s comment at 11:57pm. That is what DTSI is defending.”

Dora, I wasn’t defending any statement. I read your predictable post attacking Mr. Phoney and I simply stated the obvious, that most people on this blog make more sense than you do.

Dora says:

October 8th, 2007 at 5:30 pm

I was commenting on a specific post, you on the other hand had nothing more than a knee-jerk response without fully understanding the context. However, there’s no surprise there.

dare2sayit.com says:

October 8th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

Dora,

I understand the context of you being wrong most of the time, doesn’t that count for something?

Dora says:

October 8th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

No DTSI, your assertions don’t count for anything.

Mark the sequel says:

October 9th, 2007 at 3:40 pm

No problem, Dora.

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